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Krake - B&M dive machine for Heide Park

Okay, probably not possible as this has magnetic brakes, but ...

Could they install "speed dependent" brakes just after the splash? So they know the maximum amount of braking the water splash could potentially cause, then have a braking mechanism that slows the train to the right speed for the inversion. If the inversion is low (which it does look) and they want to guarantee the element is taken at the correct speed, could it be done?

I know it's possible with friction brakes... Just an idea to try and get that "correct speed" thing in there.
 
^I think it'd be possible with magnetic brakes to achieve this speed control you're proposing.

Firstly, I'm assuming that the water splash will indeed be using 'scoops' rather than 'simulated' a la Manta/Atlantis Adventure as otherwise there would be little reason for the inversion to be so comparatively small when compared with the drop height. Additionally the 'trough' seems pretty long for a more 'simulated' splashdown effect

Although it would be impossible to guarantee consistent braking patterns using the watersplash alone, it is possible to guarantee a certain amount of deceleration within a relatively wide tolerance. The first half of the trough may therefore be braked using the water splash alone with a set of speed limiting magnetic trims towards the end to limit the speed more precisely down to the design speed- this can be done by magnetic brakes that are fixed in place if the correct design assumptions can be satisfied as the size of eddy currents etc developed in such braking systems will be dependant upon the train's speed and so such brakes can be used to limit speeds within a pretty precise range
 
Tim said:
Oh well if we're taking bets I'm going to play too!

b9g02x.jpg


I lose :(

But its nice to dream
r
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You basically illustrated what I said. Lol.

Only, in real life, it won't have anywhere near the level of themeing But hopefully more octopus and less nessie. Derp. ;)
 
coasterdude_1 said:
^I think it'd be possible with magnetic brakes to achieve this speed control you're proposing.
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Yeah, Thirteen is surely a good example. Though I dont think thats the problem. We're on about it loosing too much speed, as appose to 'not enough'.

I just find it odd that they would be a coaster, with such an awsome drop, that offers fantastic sensations, but you straight away hit some brakes at the bottom....
 
Hixee said:
^What if it's going too slow?
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My thought was this.

It's possible to work out a potential maximum braking force of the water. If the temperature never gets below a certain level and drainage means the water level can never get above a certain height. So you take those maximum potential values that can cause a great braking force and say "this is the slowest the train will possibly be going at the end of the splash area".

The inversion is then at a height that works within that confine, so the train can never be going too slow for it to complete the element, no matter how dense or high the water levels.

Of course, you could easily end up with a situation where the train is going too fast, so this is why I thought of having variable brakes to bring that speed further down if it's come through the water too quickly.

However, practically, I just don't know if it's feasible. Martyn B, I agrre with you, it's really odd to have a dive into brakes like that. I don't know what kind of speed it will get too off the drop and we don't know what the actual braking effect of the water splash will be (if it IS a water splash :lol:).

but yeah, that's the issue, the whole thing just doesn't make a lot of sense at the moment :)
 
Martyn B said:
coasterdude_1 said:
^I think it'd be possible with magnetic brakes to achieve this speed control you're proposing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Thirteen is surely a good example. Though I dont think thats the problem. We're on about it loosing too much speed, as appose to 'not enough'.

I just find it odd that they would be a coaster, with such an awsome drop, that offers fantastic sensations, but you straight away hit some brakes at the bottom....
Click to expand...

The same thing could be said about any water braking mechanism- both Griffon, Sheikra etc etc still have to ascend a reasonably substantial hill following the water splash and thus suffer the same effects. They, too will have design speeds for the remaining portion of their layouts that will also require consistency (although I do agree that this is a substantially smaller portion)

To avoid it losing 'too much' speed, it will be simply designed with water braking to intentionally remove too little speed and remove the rest with magnetic brakes which trim to the precise design speed. The scoops can easily be designed with this in mind, as is shown by Sheikra retaining enough speed to reach the top of the hill following its splash http://www.rcdb.com/2662.htm?p=12153 . I think what is needed to bear in mind is that, although it is not a precise system, it will still produce a speed within a reasonable tolerance

Also observing: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8313 ... 963410.png , it is clear that the splashdown pool is intentionally a separate reservoir to that of the lake which will likely have a carefully monitored water height to minimise any variability in the water height.

In addition, as previously stated, B&M use scoops, rather than blades or fins. Although this trims off more speed, it additionally trims it off more accurately, as the front end of the scoops are fully submerged regardless of the water height (within a range that can be controlled as previously mentioned), which will not be true for blades/fins which work on a more precise assumed water height. With this in mind, although I expect that additional trims will be used to achieve the design speed, I propose that, although water does move etc, because submerged scoops are used rather than any other slowing device, it my be possible to achieve an appropriate speed throughout the rest of the course...

Why put the splash so early on?
I propose its a combination of space available and fitting the layout within this, and also slightly shameless cost saving. Without the water braking early on, there would be greater costs in increasing the height of all layout items, and also possibly increased costs of additional brakes required towards the end of the ride.
 
I propose its a combination of space available and fitting the layout within this, and also slightly shameless cost saving. Without the water braking early on, there would be greater costs in increasing the height of all layout items, and also possibly increased costs of additional brakes required towards the end of the ride.
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You could argue that last point with 'why have the ride so tall in the first place?' If there is a real splash, and it is there just to cut speed (in a much more pleasent way than a normal trim) then why not just make the coaster smaller in the first place, then even more money could be saved..?
 
Joey said:
Tim said:
Oh well if we're taking bets I'm going to play too!

b9g02x.jpg


I lose :(

But its nice to dream
Click to expand...
You basically illustrated what I said. Lol.

Only, in real life, it won't have anywhere near the level of themeing But hopefully more octopus and less nessie. Derp. ;)
Click to expand...

I wonder when the entertainment industry will realise, or care about, that Kraken is a crab or a whale, not a squid... well, actually, it has been described in the legends as being capable of dragging ships to the seafloor, but its general depiction is more akin to "floating island", and it's said to have both a head and a tail.
 
Martyn B said:
I propose its a combination of space available and fitting the layout within this, and also slightly shameless cost saving. Without the water braking early on, there would be greater costs in increasing the height of all layout items, and also possibly increased costs of additional brakes required towards the end of the ride.
Click to expand...

You could argue that last point with 'why have the ride so tall in the first place?' If there is a real splash, and it is there just to cut speed (in a much more pleasent way than a normal trim) then why not just make the coaster smaller in the first place, then even more money could be saved..?
Click to expand...

Agreed. Its definitely a combination of many things regardless. This way they get a 'tall' imposing coaster and produce enough layout after it such that it's not just a one-trick pony.

I agree - however, the issue is that that the effect of that tolerance is multiplied when you place an element like this at the beginning of the ride as opposed to the end.

When all you're doing post-splash is ascending a fairly small (when compared to the rest of the attraction) hill and a diving turn, your tolerance is much greater.

When you're following the splash with the largest non-drop element on the ride, and 4/5 of the layout, your window for error becomes much smaller. Any undesired effects of the splash are now going to be multiplied and felt throughout the entire attraction, as opposed to a small hill and a turn.
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Agreed- I was more arguing the point against the making it 'too slow' point. It'll be interesting to see what eventually is put in place as my gut feeling is that they could just about manage to get a sufficient tolerance given the control of water level for the following layout, but I think there'll be some kind of trim in their either way. It doesn't seem like a B&M risk to take...

Out of interest, are any existing coasters with waterspashes in regions where water freezes etc? It's worth noting that (correct me if I'm wrong) the weather in Soltau is much more variable than that in Tampa Bay, for example, such that perhaps Krake will be designed with trims such that it can also run optimally without water, should snow or similar be predicted.
 
then why not just make the coaster smaller in the first place, then even more money could be saved..?
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Because at the end of the day, they're building a dive machine. They couldn't go much smaller or they'd lose the effect of it being a vertical drop, since the vertical section would end up being ridiculously short.
 
UC said:
I wonder when the entertainment industry will realise, or care about, that Kraken is a crab or a whale, not a squid... well, actually, it has been described in the legends as being capable of dragging ships to the seafloor, but its general depiction is more akin to "floating island", and it's said to have both a head and a tail.
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That's fantastic and all, except "Krake" is German for "Octopus," and this ride is being built in a German park.
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Not only that, but theme parks have to appeal to stereotypes or else they'd fail to convey any narrative since they rely on so few signifiers.

Besides, cephalopods are cooler than crustaceans or cetaceans.
 
Well...

That's kind of disappointing looking.

I hope it rides better than it looks.

The immelman looks very odd from that angle, too.
 
I don't know... I mean, I wasn't really expecting much anyways when they say "Mini Dive Machine." Plus, the length doesn't allow a ton.
 
^ That is actually interesting. I knew it looked weird, but I didn't know why.

I don't know what causes the weird air-timey forces on Sheikra's immelman that Griffon doesn't have, but I wonder if this will pull something odd?
 
It looks like the bastard love-child of an overbank and Immelman...
 
Someone pointed this out on the TPR board, and they're right - that immelman twists the "wrong" way for the exit it takes. Typically, immelmans will angle off in the direction they twist out of...

http://www.rcdb.com/2662.htm?p=11844
http://www.rcdb.com/3631.htm?p=19388

This one doesn't, however.

I know it's minor, but a detail-oriented pedant like me found it interesting.
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I noticed that too, it's abit weird but I think B&M have done it before. I think Silver Bullet does it on it's zero-g roll. Can't think of any other examples, it's quite rare.
 
I noticed this when I saw that they had constructed it, it didn't run as odd to me to be honest, it reminds me of Saw's Immelman, without the banking at the bottom.

Could it be due to anything like saving space, supports or even that it couldn't pass over the track due to theming etc? - I can't think of anything else really.
 
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