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Raptor - B&M 'Wing-Rider' - Gardaland

New image of the completed figure-8 layout:

webImage3.jpg

B&M have even managed to add a trim to the layout...
 
Wow, they added the trim after the hill instead of ontop of it. Good! Now it wont kill the potential airtime :)
 
That trim is bloody pointless. Just let it roll ffs and let this get above 2 mph. So what if it overspeeds a bit. Rediculous.

Other than that it looks awesome.

Edit in the morning after: Ok so I've reconcidered this statement after a bit of thinking over the varibles. This is a new train style, so they may not be able to predict whats going to happen 100% untill physical testing, etc. Yeah I get that, Just fed up with them doing this on all the modern rides, new or tried out. Kinda defeats the whole idea of a rollercoaster. The free, out of control sensations, then to be controlled so much. Surely thats a fair statement?

V Intimidator's a whole different argument. That was totally necessary, what with apparently distroying wheels every-other day and possibilly for rider comfort. If I was in control of that ride, I'd have had trims put on so that it could run for the season, and fix the problem at a later date in the closed period.
 
A-Kid said:
That trim is bloody pointless. Just let it roll ffs and let this get above 2 mph. So what if it overspeeds a bit. Rediculous.
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Erm... Yes A-Kid, of course... I think any arguement against trims should be pointed towards what happened with Intimidator 305 whilst loudly saying...

"THAT'S WHY IT WILL HAVE TRIMS, BECAUSE THEY WANT PEOPLE TO ENJOY IT RATHER THAN BE DAZED AND BLACKING OUT"...

Hell, Air has a trim... But it's never on... It's all about safety and in this case in their numerous test calculations they must have felt that the ride may just be too forceful without slight trimming and hence added it... As Thirteen proved physical testing may just change this so that the trim rarely comes on...

Nothing is pointless when it comes to engineering something... Not one thing put in the final design of any product hasn't been thought out with alternatives looked out... Basic engineering design right there...

Stop being silly...
 
UC said:
I'm wondering how long it's going to be before people realize that I305's issue wasn't about blacking out, but with the mechanical nature of the trains.
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Let's be honest, it was probably a mixture of both...

Rest of your post is spot on though...

Though I've noticed A-Kid has edited his post...

As I said (and UC), all trims are put on for a reason... Not because they want to ruin the 'out-of-control' feeling as you put it...

Regarding I305, so you'd do what they're doing to it right now? Very imaginative... :roll:

This is why I prefer B&M over Intamin tbh, they have a consistent quality about them... Even if they don't break boundaries so readily, the way in which they do it just has a feel of attention and care put into more than Intamin seem to have...
 
The park always said at the start that this ride was about the experience, and I would rather have a trim over the roughness and back pain Baco gives :)

It is probably wrong to compare them anyway as they are totally different in what they offer, the only thing in common is probably the seating position.
 
UC said:
Where's Xpress with a post about how poor B&M's design team is, and how they're just copying Intamin?
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What's so poor about their design team? Last I checked, they have some of the most amazing rides in the world, and that didn't come from a poor design team...

B&M decided to wisely take the cautious approach to add, what appears to be a pair of trims rather than one single one, on a new ride design they've never built before. What's wrong with being cautious?

Also, lots of B&M's have trims, although the B&M's I've seen in person don't use the trims, or the trims have never been installed.
 
Why are trims put on rides and then never used? "Just in case"? Just in case of what, exactly? Why are B&M so, so, so careful? Is it all more to do with ensuring the ride lasts? Like, presumably, a coaster with more carefully calculated forces won't beat itself up and thus last longer and require less maintenance?

Also, regarding I305 and the trims, everyone was still greying out after they were added. Whether or not the grey out lasted for a longer period before, I don't know, but post-trims it lasted from the base of the drop till the crest of that first hill, so I don't see how that's possible. It's not like greying out is dangerous. I don't know if anyone was actually blacking out, since people use the term willy-nilly and inaccurately all the time It's kind of hard to tell, but blacking out is serious and it's not what everyone was reporting on I305.
 
Why does a ride need trims? Well, for the exact reason they're called Trims. They're there to keep the trains speed in check. Different train weights from riders all weighing differently could cause an increase in speed, and thus the trim will kick in for a quick tap on the train to slow it to the appropriate speed (for rides that use a functioning mechanical working trim). They could need them to prevent a train from speeding excessively into a range that is dangerous for the trains mechanical components, or to lower the forces before a questionable element.

When a ride is created in a simulator, that's all it is, is a simulated ride. The designer won't know how the ride actually performs as a solid existing structure, so as a safety precaution trims are added. It's better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them.

Similar to why rev limiters are put on modern cars or ATV's, to keep the engine from being ran into dangerous RPM's by the user.

Of course this is mostly an educated guess, and I'm sure UC will be in here to make a ruckus about me being wrong, and give correct info.. :?
 
UC said:
Why are trims put on rides and then never used? "Just in case"? Just in case of what, exactly? Why are B&M so, so, so careful? Is it all more to do with ensuring the ride lasts? Like, presumably, a coaster with more carefully calculated forces won't beat itself up and thus last longer and require less maintenance?
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I think it's more that they've never used a train type like this before, and they're being extra-cautious in case it performs a little differently than expected. There's really nothing anyone can do to completely 100% predict how a ride will turn out before it opens (despite what critics of Th13teen and I305 think), so B&M are being pro-active and putting in a trim now, in case it needs to be used later to slow the ride down because of unexpected performance - that way, it can be adjusted based on need, and won't require the ride to have additional work performed in the future if a trim is indeed needed.
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Oh it's that simple, lol. Fair enough. I fully understand that you cannot fully predict how something in the real world will work, too many variables.

EDIT: But that doesn't answer the real question... What... are they for? I understand that the ride won't run exactly as predicted, but it's not going to be that far off - it certainly shouldn't be so far off it causes rider harm, so what are they "preventing"?

Saying that, when people criticise Intamin I think they are doing it justly. There is no denying that Intamin encounter more problems which appear the result of poor planning than any of the other major players.

But also, I think there are lots of examples of coasters which want to have an element "for show" and the trims enable them to do it, they aren't there as the result of bad design. In Thirteen's case, maybe they wanted something to look taller and intimidating but not actually be. In I305's case, I think the height was all they cared about and the remaining layout was thought of as little more than filler (despite the drop being one of the worst first drops in the world and the ending being the best bit of the ride).
 
UC said:
I think I'm just curious as to why you defend the use of them in the B&M topic, yet you rip on Intamin in the I305 topic.
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Because B&M hasn't tried this coaster type before- Intamin on the other hand has made a successfully operating Giga coaster 10 years prior to I305's opening date. How does Intamin screw up so badly on the 2nd try yet do it perfectly the first? You would have figured a company like them would have made major improvements to the train chassis to allow it to operate more smoothly without less mechanical problems, let alone on a fast paced track like I305's.

That is why I find B&M's approach to be wise, yet Intamins to be more foolish.
 
I always thought it was to keep consistancey.

I mean in a restaurant you want every dish to come out the same. In a similar way, a ride's performance is effected by many things that change over time. By having a trim you can make sure every ride is how it's intended to be.

Could be wrong with this theory but meh. I just don't think they're there for safety, as even if they are used, they berly take off any speed. Not enough imo to effect the safety of the ride (on a B&M). I'd completely understand trims to reduce maintenance on the trains though.

With all that said, I'm not upset about them, I never really notice them on rides, and when I have done (raging bull) they haven't "ruined the ride".

Also, Xpress, I think you should commend Intamin for taking risks, they may have crossed the line a couple of times, but they're pushing a lot more boundaries than B&M over the years. And it is paid off and got their name up there as one of the industry leaders. I'd hardly call that foolish, they're just different approaches to ride design.
 
UC said:
And finally, I just absolutely love how you think that being a coaster enthusiast qualifies you to criticize the engineering ability of one of the most successful companies in the business. You really are ignorant, aren't you?
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Perhaps I am, and there's not much you can do about that, isn't there? I bet it annoys the piss out of you to think that, and guess what? That's how my personality is, get over it.

I have every qualification in the world to criticize what someone makes, as there is nobody that can prevent me from doing so, and because I fit into the category of "general public", by your definition, because I posses "no mechanical engineering background". Just because I criticize it, does not mean it will hold water, now stop your bitching.
 
If this splashdown element is actually happening (I can't be bothered to trawl through 20 pages to see if it's confirmed or just a rumour) then it was suggested a couple of pages back that it could be on the corner between the bunny hop and second inversion... Or in other words, straight after the trim.

If there is indeed a splashdown there, putting a trim there seems perfectly sensible.



(PS. I think Maverick's heartline roll was clearly insane from the start, but I'll save that for another topic.)
 
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