Pro-life or Pro-choice?

[LiveForTheLaunch]

So?

The fact that you turned out fab has nothing to do with it. Only you have the perception to enjoy your life first hand. If you didn't exist, it wouldn't be a case of not enjoying your life, it would be a case of there being nothingness. No ability to enjoy or not enjoy. Do you see the difference? One matters, one doesn't.

My point was that, at 19 years old she DIDN'T want me because she DIDN'T have a job and she DIDN'T feel like she could raise me to the best of her ability. But the fact of the matter is, she did, just like I'm sure many of the other people who choose abortions are capable of doing. Just because a mom doesn't necessarily want their kid at first doesn't mean the kid will have a bad life if the mom chooses to have it.

I don't NEED statistics, it's purely an opinion. I don't judge people who get abortions unless they're getting knocked up like crazy. From a personal standpoint, I never would have one and I don't really agree with it either, but I'm not that crazy person on campus a few weeks ago handing out "anti-abortion" pamphlets.

 

[Xpress]

^Think how different that graph would look if abortions weren't legal </3

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

 

[Intricks]

^Think how different that graph would look if abortions weren't legal </3

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

Going off that, think about how far worse the world could be. Yes, cancer could be cured, or the crime rate could have shot up or something equally as bad. Using the "what if" equation is a **** rebutal and holds no grounds in this topic. You can go positively, others will go negatively.

Myself, pro-choice. Pro-life people tend to annoy me, as when they are met with the question of "Would you be willing to adopt the kid?", they back down faster than a fatass rolling after a box of burgers. If they arent willing to adopt the kid and try to raise it as their own, then they need to shut up and go back to their corner with the dunce cap on as their arguments are invalid. Now, not to say ALL pro-life people house that stance, but those that I've run into, do.

I do agree after the certain point that it is kinda cruel, but this is also in the country in which people that deserve to die, cant because all reasonable forms of killing them (including lethal inection), are seen as cruel and inhumane (they feel pain supposedly when dealing with the injection). So, this is actually something I generally ignore and give a very brutal and offensive retort on when asked by others as it is a religious view/belief being forced upon others due to there being no seperation of church and state.

That and I just hate most people.

Switching between the hideouts'...

 

[furie]

My point was that, at 19 years old she DIDN'T want me because she DIDN'T have a job and she DIDN'T feel like she could raise me to the best of her ability. But the fact of the matter is, she did, just like I'm sure many of the other people who choose abortions are capable of doing. Just because a mom doesn't necessarily want their kid at first doesn't mean the kid will have a bad life if the mom chooses to have it.

When Madame_Furie had Minor_Furie, everyone thought she was mad. She was in her third year at uni, living in a one bedroom flat with no income, savings or anything; plus she was estranged from her family Having Minor_Furie would make finishing her degree near impossible, let alone raising a child in that environment.

As she got near her due date, she got pre-eclampsia and went into a coma. They induced Minor_Furie in an attempt to save both of them (which fortunately worked). There was never a moment when she found out she was pregnant that Madame_Furie was going to abort the child. Despite the risks (which really do happen, she did almost die), she was always going to endure the hardships.

She's absolutely, 100% pro-choice. It's this entire "choice" thing you see? Even though she was never going to abort a child, she could at least have the option if she wanted it. As has been said, just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you're always going to have an abortion (support an abortion) each and every time. It means that you support a person's right to choose, whether you'd make the same choice as them or not.

There are so many factors to take into consideration to make that choice, and it's not a choice that people take lightly. "Give it up for adoption then!" is such an easy suggestion to make if you don't have to carry the child for 9 months. Explain to everyone that you're not keeping the child because you hate kids and you're only doing it for some vaguely moral obligation. You need to have the stigma of failed contraception all the time then on top, plus the pain of childbirth, the time off work, just... everything. There are physical complication, social complications and it's all against a moral complication. How you work out the way to deal with that personally and how able you are to cope with it is up to the individual.

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

Yeah, Intricks covered this, but think of how many of those children could have become violent murderers, rapists, drug pushers, gang leaders or ethnic cleansing dictators. The argument is a complete fallacy.

 

[Ben]

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

I think with the vastly growing population which is leading to over-population, we probably have all the cancer curers we need...

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

Think about all the potential people in your testicles right now. Every second of your life spent failing to procreate you're denying the world a potential genius, a potential retard, a potential arsehole, and a whole load of potential average Joe's.

Your argument is so absolutely mind numbingly ...silly.

I don't NEED statistics, it's purely an opinion. I don't judge people who get abortions unless they're getting knocked up like crazy. From a personal standpoint, I never would have one and I don't really agree with it either, but I'm not that crazy person on campus a few weeks ago handing out "anti-abortion" pamphlets.

This makes you pro-choice, as Furie explained.

My point was that, at 19 years old she DIDN'T want me because she DIDN'T have a job and she DIDN'T feel like she could raise me to the best of her ability. But the fact of the matter is, she did, just like I'm sure many of the other people who choose abortions are capable of doing. Just because a mom doesn't necessarily want their kid at first doesn't mean the kid will have a bad life if the mom chooses to have it.

I understand, but do you understand me? Whether the kids life turns out to be good, bad or average isn't relevant if it ceases to exist. The only person who matters is the parent.

If your mum had chosen to abort you and regretted it, the only person effected is her. If she'd chosen to abort and not regretted it, the only person effected is her. Do you see?

 

[Patrick]

And Patrick, I think you'll find that as developed human beings, sex is for reproduction AND pleasure, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have it far more often for one of those reasons and the other.

But primarily for reproduction. That is the natural purpose of sexual intercourse. As I previously said, if pregnancy occurs then that's just natural and they should have to face the consequences.

And also, the majority of women who have abortions are not using it like a form of contraception. It's not a decision to be taken lightly and, it can be easily argued, as emotionally harrowing as pregnancy itself. This is another thing that bothers me about the pro-life argument, it seems to be under the impression that if we're pro-choice we'll just go and have an abortion willy-nilly, like it's a very casual thing to us. It's not. It's as big a decision a person can ever make in their life.

In my experience, a lot of young women do use it as a form of contraception, they also use it as an easy way out when they don't want to damage their reputation (be labelled as 'slags').

 

[Hixee]

And Patrick, I think you'll find that as developed human beings, sex is for reproduction AND pleasure, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have it far more often for one of those reasons and the other.

But primarily for reproduction. That is the natural purpose of sexual intercourse. As I previously said, if pregnancy occurs then that's just natural and they should have to face the consequences.

Not in this day and age it's not. Sure, the natural purpose of sex is reproduction, but the primary reason people have sex these days is for pleasure. Couples have sex countless times and once have a kid? If it was for reproduction alone, why would they not just have sex until she was pregnant? The point that sex if primarily for reproduction (in social terms, not biological) is just... wrong.

 

[furie]

But primarily for reproduction. That is the natural purpose of sexual intercourse. As I previously said, if pregnancy occurs then that's just natural and they should have to face the consequences.

But not any more (outside of a minority of religious sects). Human beings primarily have intercourse for enjoyment, not reproduction. Sexual organs are designs for reproduction, but the act of intercourse these days is enjoyment and companionship.

(Hixee snook in there)

It's like saying chocolate is for sustenance only and that we should just live with the obesity as a consequence of eating it

And also, the majority of women who have abortions are not using it like a form of contraception. It's not a decision to be taken lightly and, it can be easily argued, as emotionally harrowing as pregnancy itself. This is another thing that bothers me about the pro-life argument, it seems to be under the impression that if we're pro-choice we'll just go and have an abortion willy-nilly, like it's a very casual thing to us. It's not. It's as big a decision a person can ever make in their life.

In my experience, a lot of young women do use it as a form of contraception, they also use it as an easy way out when they don't want to damage their reputation (be labelled as 'slags').

Obviously I'm quite out of touch then, because I've been through very promiscuous environments with people pretty much sleeping with each other all over, but abortion was never seen as a good thing.

Although it may have been, but people generally never discussed such things in public as it's seen as a very private thing. I think I know of perhaps two people who have been through with it, and have maybe heard about two or three others in my entire life. Though hearsay can be very malicious and I don't believe everything I've heard from third parties.

 

[nadroJ]

^Think how different that graph would look if abortions weren't legal </3

Think about how many more people there would be in the world. Think about how many of those children could have become medical scientists and discovered cures for Cancer, or other life threatening deals.

If it were made illegal, it wouldn't stop people doing it, it'd just make people find other ways of doing it. Illegal, potential harmful, potentially life-threatening ways. Scary ways, like out of a horror movie ways. So yeah...

In my experience, a lot of young women do use it as a form of contraception, they also use it as an easy way out when they don't want to damage their reputation (be labelled as 'slags').

In your experience? Please elaborate? And this bothers me a lot too. I'm pretty sure most girls aren't like, 'hey, **** the condom, I'll just go and have a lovely abortion instead, so easy!' No, the fact that you even think that is just ridiculous. Describing having an abortion as an easy way out is so ill-informed I don't even know where to begin with it.

 

[Patrick]

In my experience, a lot of young women do use it as a form of contraception, they also use it as an easy way out when they don't want to damage their reputation (be labelled as 'slags').

In your experience? Please elaborate? And this bothers me a lot too. I'm pretty sure most girls aren't like, 'hey, **** the condom, I'll just go and have a lovely abortion instead, so easy!' No, the fact that you even think that is just ridiculous. Describing having an abortion as an easy way out is so ill-informed I don't even know where to begin with it.

Did I say that? Girls DO use abortion as a safety net and it prevents them from having to tell friends, relatives etc which is an easy way out in my book. Do you honestly think girls would sleep around as much if abortion was illegal? If they knew that if anything goes wrong they'll have to go through pregnancy for nine months?

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

Well whatever I am, I can't say I've supported a single person who has had an abortion.

 

[furie]

In my experience, a lot of young women do use it as a form of contraception, they also use it as an easy way out when they don't want to damage their reputation (be labelled as 'slags').

In your experience? Please elaborate? And this bothers me a lot too. I'm pretty sure most girls aren't like, 'hey, **** the condom, I'll just go and have a lovely abortion instead, so easy!' No, the fact that you even think that is just ridiculous. Describing having an abortion as an easy way out is so ill-informed I don't even know where to begin with it.

Did I say that? Girls DO use abortion as a safety net and it prevents them from having to tell friends, relatives etc which is an easy way out in my book. Do you honestly think girls would sleep around as much if abortion was illegal? If they knew that if anything goes wrong they'll have to go through pregnancy for nine months?

Sorry, exactly which part of the Victorian era did you say you were from?

sent from my bum via a fancy phone.

 

[jayjay]

Do you honestly think girls would sleep around as much if abortion was illegal? If they knew that if anything goes wrong they'll have to go through pregnancy for nine months?

Yes. Anyone who takes something like that as a light decision isn't a great person anyway.

I'm with Furie, but since he's said everything way better than I could, I'll just refer up to his posts.

 

[Intricks]

To Patrick: Honestly, where do you get your facts (4chan?) and WHERE are all your female friends from? No girl around my age (23) uses abortion like it is some kind newage cellphone app (bad comparrison, I know). Question though, do you consider the Morning After pill a form of abortion? If so, I think you need to recheck your facts as all it does (from my general unserstanding) is force a woman to have her cycle before nature intended. Since nothing has most likely actually occured (fertilization is HIGHLY questionable if the woman didnt orgasm during the act, or was nowhere near her 'prime baby makin time'), it is used as a Plan B to a drunken one night stand, in which you are either making a mistake, or making a mistake.

Switching between the hideouts'...

 

[Xpress]

Well whatever I am, I can't say I've supported a single person who has had an abortion.

This, in the sense that I cannot support the act of someone committing abortion, all I can do is support the person after the matter. Another thing is to think of how emotionally scarring it is to the girl that decided to go through it. I know of a few adult, fully grown up women in their late 30's who aborted a child in their teen years, and they regret every bit of doing it.

All I can do is re-state what has been said though. Of course I can't actually go through the whole process of creating a clone of mine person and an opposing sex person.

 

[Xpress]

Pro-life people tend to annoy me, as when they are met with the question of "Would you be willing to adopt the kid?", they back down faster than a fatass rolling after a box of burgers. If they arent willing to adopt the kid and try to raise it as their own, then they need to shut up and go back to their corner with the dunce cap on as their arguments are invalid. Now, not to say ALL pro-life people house that stance, but those that I've run into, do.

I'm not saying that I will, or will not... But in the great state of California it takes quite a lengthy screening process for someone to legally be allowed to adopt a child, and it's rather expensive.

Now, let me flip the question on you. Would you adopt a child, instead of let it be aborted?

 

[Xpress]

And Patrick, I think you'll find that as developed human beings, sex is for reproduction AND pleasure, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have it far more often for one of those reasons and the other.

But primarily for reproduction. That is the natural purpose of sexual intercourse. As I previously said, if pregnancy occurs then that's just natural and they should have to face the consequences.

Not in this day and age it's not. Sure, the natural purpose of sex is reproduction, but the primary reason people have sex these days is for pleasure. Couples have sex countless times and once have a kid? If it was for reproduction alone, why would they not just have sex until she was pregnant? The point that sex if primarily for reproduction (in social terms, not biological) is just... wrong.

The natural purpose of sex is reproduction, not for pleasure even though it is rather... pleasurable... If it wasn't, would you do it?

 

[Hixee]

A triple post Xpress... bloody hell!

The natural purpose of sex is reproduction, not for pleasure even though it is rather... pleasurable... If it wasn't, would you do it?

Probably, but only around the time you'd want to (try and) conceive. Not multiple times a week because it feels good.

 

[furie]

Well whatever I am, I can't say I've supported a single person who has had an abortion.

Jump back on this one... As much as I disagree with your reasons Tay (and will argue against them), I do actually respect your opinion on this. For personal (or whatever) reasons, you've come to the decision that abortion is a bad thing and you dislike it. That's not an issue really, and it's kind of what pro-choice is; to let people choose how they personally feel. So it's not a problem you disliking it.

However, Patrick seems to have decided abortion is dreadful and is now trying to make up reasons why it's a bad thing (hence why his argument doesn't stand in the slightest and makes no sense).

To be fair, this is something I do all the time. I make a decision where I stand on an issue because it feels "right". Then I try to work out if I'm actually in the right or not. If I'm not, I change my opinion. I do explore as much evidence and arguments from all sides as I can first though to help me decide if I'm right or not.

Sometimes, you come to a natural position (as Tay has done on abortion). Your life experience moulds you over the years to have opinions. These are fine, even if they don't stand up logically (as Joey has argued), it doesn't matter because it's the way you feel.

I just get the impression that Patrick has made a decision based on rhetoric or somebody else's words without actually thinking about it for himself. If you do that, then you need to make sure that your reasons are sound. Have an opinion, but also have the guts to stand by it and say it's personal and not make up stuff to try and justify yourself - you'll never win a debate if your argument is based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence. I'm not having a go Patrick, but if you feel that people are dead set against you on this and getting angry, it's because the "evidence" you're producing is just complete and utter rubbish, so nobody believes you have evidential conviction in your view.

Girls DO use abortion as a safety net and it prevents them from having to tell friends, relatives etc which is an easy way out in my book. Do you honestly think girls would sleep around as much if abortion was illegal? If they knew that if anything goes wrong they'll have to go through pregnancy for nine months?

Firstly, abortion IS a safety net, but just because a trapeze artist has a safety net doesn't mean they don't practice, practice, practice to ensure they don't fall. There being a solution that ruins the show isn't an option to be taken lightly.

Next, girls who sleep around are likely to be better protected against pregnancy to be honest. It's true that the more you sleep with boys, the higher the chance of pregnancy, but it's not a given certainty. I've been having sex at least once a week (probably higher on average, you get a lot in at 2 seconds a pop ) for over 20 years, yet there's not a huge gaggle of minor_Furie's around. That's a fair amount of spurt and very little procreation. Some of the girls I've slept with had three figure numbers in terms of men they'd slept with and no sign of of kids either. Girls who enjoy sex and sleep around are generally pretty hot on their sexual health and contraception. Like any professional, you make sure that you have the equipment required to keep you safe and healthy.

Don't get me wrong, mistakes can happen, but you'll probably find that pregnancy in virgins or girls early in their sexual career are much higher than those who regularly have sex. Inexperience leads to mistakes. Complacency also leads to mistakes. I'm one of a triumvirate of gaming friends from way back. We all have family and have been married for ten+ years. Within the last four years, we've all had a "mistake" which has led to unexpected pregnancy*. It's complacency that leads to it, even in mature adults. A moment of "bugger it" while in passion with somebody you love has consequences you weren't expecting (or rather you knew it could happen, but chances are generally against it). For one of my friends, abortion was absolutely on the table. My friend's wife has a rare form of leukaemia and the strain of pregnancy could have killed her. There's also the matter that there's a good chance she'll be dead before she's 40, leaving now all three kids motherless while they're young. She wouldn't abort because they decided they could cope, but doctors certainly recommended that she should. The point is, it was good the option was there. If it had been this year, then there would have been little choice. Stupidity on both parents' side? Yes, but it shows that it's not just "slags" who are risk of making the mistake.

Finally, abortion is NOT an easy option, it's NOT an easy way out. It's a hideous experience, it's frightening, it's degrading (or at the very least embarrassing) and it can be painful. Mentally it's potentially scarring for life. Until you've actually been involved with somebody who has had one, then you can't say how much of an easy option it is. Contraception is the easy option and the reason women sleep around so much (it really is like going back in time speaking as though women shouldn't have the right to enjoy a sex life) is because contraception is excellent and freely available. Abortions don't make women sleep around, fun and free (and comprehensive) contraception give women the chance to enjoy a sex life.

A triple post Xpress... bloody hell!

If you do a quote, then all the previous posts appear below the submit buttons, you can then hit the quote button on each one and it automatically adds the quote to your post. So you can easily quote lots of people. Just in case people had missed that and feel they need to triple post or anything


*Madame_Furie sadly miscarried at about 12 weeks