Heide Park 2012

[Darren B]

^So it was an actual setback? I admit I never followed construction closely enough to see what actually happened - they looked like they were building it, and then all of the sudden, it opened with the mouth next to it...I suppose I just wrote it off as "we expected more than they meant," but obviously not.

What actually set them back? I'm not sure I buy the whole "They built it too small!" thing, though I'm open to being proven wrong.

"It's too bad they got Saw then they could have had Formula Rossa."

C'mon UC, Thorpe already have a launch coaster </3

Yeah, the plan was to open the ride with the track entering the mouth, well, that is what all the advertising suggested (you will have to dig through the beggining pages to find em').

I couldn't give a reason for it not happening, I don't buy the whole 'built it too small' either, Could it be that they wanted to achieve just as much hype in it's second year of operation? I may be way off the mark, but they surely won't miss the oppertunity to plug it even more with it's 'new & improved' ride interaction?

Just my thought's....

 

[andrus]

I actually think the Saw/Krake comaprison was a legitimate one! Both are rides that build up their hype with the drop (vertical drop/beyond vertical drop). Furthermore both are "big coasters" (or maybe thrill ride is a better description) but in a compact format, and last both have inversions. At least I have always seen eurofighters as a cheaper alternative to a dive machine.. And since Thorpe had all it's problems with SAW Merlin probably made the decision to change the new ride for Heide from the eurofighter (which was a long time rumour) to a B&M design instead!

 

[Ben]

Wow, lots wrong about that.

1. By your logic, SheiKra and Saw are legitimate comparisons. As is Fahrenheit.

Except that's obviously not his logic.

Or did I miss the part where Sheikra and Saw were built by the same company?

2.

And since Thorpe had all it's problems with SAW Merlin probably made the decision to change the new ride for Heide from the eurofighter (which was a long time rumour) to a B&M design instead!

Considering that B&Ms are planned about 3-4 years in advance due to demand, your assumption is wrong.

Actually, that's something that has been discussed a fair bit in the past as a reason behind why Krake is how it is. And stranger things have happened.

Jeez, you really are just making mountains out of molehills lately.

 

[marc]

If it is true what we were told and I cannot say who told us.

This was never going to be a B&M, but due to what happened with Saw the coaster planned was dropped and they got this. As a result the planned theming did not fit.

As I said don't know if it's true or not but does make sense.

Look at the layout I don't think this would take much planning it does nothing really.

 

[Darren B]

If it is true what we were told and I cannot say who told us.

This was never going to be a B&M, but due to what happened with Saw the coaster planned was dropped and they got this. As a result the planned theming did not fit.

As I said don't know if it's true or not but does make sense.

Look at the layout I don't think this would take much planning it does nothing really.

I think what your saying seem's believable, and in that case, this could be worth noting in the AT2013 coaster topic, Seeing as Merlin haven't installed a Gerstlauer since Saw.

More onto topic, have Heide had any issue's of note with Krake, That's actually a silly question, Isn't it :--D

 

[Ben]

He stated that he thinks Krake was built as the substitute for a EuroFighter. I'm telling you that B&M have a rather decent backlog on their projects, and the two years in between identifying operational issues with Saw and designing Krake is simply not enough time to accomplish anything.

You think if a company they have a great relationship with came up to them and said "look, we have this quite simple ride we'd like, urgently, and we'll pay" B&M would really go "nah, sorry, please take your money elsewhere even though we're perfectly capable of earning it". Especially when you consider that this year, they're building a LOT more than their "schedule" should be allowing them to.

The B&M issue you guys can't seem to get past is that you think that because the layout is rather simplistic, that it doesn't require much planning or time spent in the field. That's simply not the issue - all rides, especially those designed by B&M, are designed very, very rigorously. That said, with a backlog the way it is, B&M had their full schedule set for 2011 by, at a minimum, 2007-2008. There is no way Krake could've been squeezed in.

Except there really is. It might not be the way they normally do buisness, but, if a company came to them with a simple request and the money to do it, why WOULDN'T they do it? Who's to say the ride wasn't already designed in terms of layout etc, you know, how SO many rides are designed and then shelved, so that the process was already half-way through? Case in point - the six across thing dates back to when Oblivion was being designed. Who knows what other elements were already in place.

Especially not when you consider the attention the prototype Raptor must have received. Remember the projects they turned down to focus on their first Invert...?

Yeah, cause, focusing on their first coaster twenty years ago and focusing on a new coaster type now is totally the same thing.

I'm stating basics, and what is common knowledge, going by the general trend and history. While I'm very open to being proven wrong (after all, facts are facts), I definitely need a little more evidence than "stranger things have happened" and "someone told me but I can't say who" before I believe some modern-day Drachen Fire type myth about this ride.

You're not really stating any "common knowledge" at all. Yes, we know B&Ms usually take a few years to get designed and built, but, there IS a lot less to Krake than a normal B&M, and if you think that would really take the same amount of time to design as, say, Raptor or Leviathan, well... You can't state that B&M would have certainly turned Krake down if they'd only had two years to do it unless you really believe B&M are run by monkeys. You have NO evidence that they would other than going "but, they're B&M it's what they dooooo", which just isn't a reason.

 

[furie]

So we're saying that B&M could up their schedule and move much faster than normal to produce a full layout coaster, but Merlin studios couldn't make the monster to fit in the same timescale and instead produced a half-arsed effort? Like the monster was built three year's ago for a Eurofighter and then they had to scrap it and spend another three years building a Dive Machine version? Is this what we're saying? Just clarifying that it's easier to commission and build a coaster than some theming.

Or did I miss the part where Sheikra and Saw were built by the same company?

Am I missing something again? When were Krake and Saw built by the same company?

 

[marc]

So we're saying that B&M could up their schedule and move much faster than normal to produce a full layout coaster, but Merlin studios couldn't make the monster to fit in the same timescale and instead produced a half-arsed effort? Like the monster was built three year's ago for a Eurofighter and then they had to scrap it and spend another three years building a Dive Machine version? Is this what we're saying? Just clarifying that it's easier to commission and build a coaster than some theming.

Or did I miss the part where Sheikra and Saw were built by the same company?

Am I missing something again? When were Krake and Saw built by the same company?

The coaster was meant to open a year after Saw, we all know it did not.

The layout is meant to be the same but the track was wider etc so yeah the theming did not fit but they thought it would if they modified at the time. This failed so they took another year to fix it.

We don't know how fast Merlin work but it probably takes a few years to design sign off and build the theming. Disney take longer so making assumptions.

As I said we were told this but I am respecting the person that said it so not naming. I don't 100% even know if it's true.

 

[Martyn B]

Yup, thats it.

 

[furie]

Personally, I suspect that there were some delays in building Krake, so there was no way the excessive theming could be added to the ride within the opening schedule so they spent an extra couple of thousand producing a "will do" set of theming and then have put off the major theming task until the closed season now to give them the time needed to do it.

Or is that a little fanciful?

As for Gerstlauer into all of this, like the GCI Wood, is it possible Gerstlauer submitted plans too for the area ride, but Merlin chose B&M for whatever reason (they don't need to give it)? So we end up with people a bit further down the chain adding two and two and getting seven?

 

[marc]

Yep UC that is what was meant to have happened. Merlin cancelled the order and went to B&M.

Merlin were meant to suing them over Saw, again not confirmed.

As I said there is no proof just what's been said by reliable people in the business.

Furie can see what you mean, and again am only going on what was said to me 3 months after Saw opened.

 

[furie]

Can we wait until we absolute definitely know SW7 is Gerstlauer before we get into that please UC? :lol:

I think it's clear that Merlin haven't sued Gerstlauer because we'd have heard about it. I think that most parks who have technical difficulties with a manufacturer work together to over come them. There are probably penalty clauses in place and the like for if there are issues. Look at Dollywood suing Huss. It's taken them years of downtime with an off-the-shelf ride before they've taken action.

Look at Alton and B&M with Air. The ride suffers from a lot of problems. Likewise Intamin with Thirteen. It's bad, but not enough to endanger a professional business relationship. Maybe Gerstlauer offered a 20% discount off their next project to make up for the Saw issues? Maybe Thorpe hadn't signed the right contract, or maybe it was a sub-contractor related issue with the ride that caused the Saw issues (most coasters are assembled through a lot of different companies, not just the people who drop in the track)? There was some reason though that the threat of legal action against Gerstlauer was never carried out.

I do remember our work's manager here telling me we were being sold to another company and being closed as they would move us to Bristol. I'd already got the full story off our MD (the other company was investing £2,000,000 in a new product line that was increasing jobs in Stafford). Within a week, everyone was ready to leave because we were closing down after the "bastard MD" had got his palm of silver. I couldn't say anything and the works manager was much higher up the food chain than me, but it just goes to show how inaccurate and damaging information can spread through a company grapevine. There's truth somewhere in there...

 

[marc]

No I agree with you both, was just saying what I was told.

Mind you I was also told about the woodie at Thorpe and now the plans have turned up.

The problems with Saw were serious as some of us know and we cannot say here.

As furie said 2 + 2 = 2777 by the time it gets round.

Yes this layout is basic but the trains are different to the normal dm ones so they would need testing and that's not a 5 min job.

 

[Uncle Arly]

I agree with UC. I don't possibly see how this was 'supposed' to be Gerst. It makes no sense, and the timeframe for it is just ridiculous.

 

[marc]

I agree with you UC as said before, was just sharing that story being right or wrong.

 

[Ben]

I honestly don't think a two year time frame is as ridiculous as you're suggesting.

You're really suggesting that, say, a year to design a B&M (giving a GENEROUS year to build the thing) is too short a time?

Krake really wasn't THAT huge a project in anyone's book. The area's easy and flat, and the ride doesn't do anything that would have given them much of a headache. B&M aren't total retards you realise, they ARE quite good at building rides now. Unless someone can find out the date Heide Park initially contacted B&M and asked for a coaster, we'll never know. I honestly think that a lot of the "three-four years" a B&M takes IS that "waiting list" that they apparently have (which I still think could have been pushed aside for something small like Krake for someone like Merlin before you go "BUT WAIT!")

But, whatever. Not that it matters, the ride is what it is. Obviously UC thinks there's some harm in just discussing things that might be <//3

Going a bit on a tangent now, but, I'd be interested in how things like Swarm and Wild Eagle are contracted. If I was the park, I'd want some sort of clause in the contract that had said "If Raptor breaks, doesn't work and is generally ****, you HAVE to prove you've put in place solutions we're happy with, or we're spiting". They obviously have some sort of performance guarantee in place for when the ride opens (which I hope Thorpe claimed under for Saw...) but, I would love to know if they have a clause that says they can cancel the order of a subsequent version of a prototype if the prototype is crap.

 

[Ben]

So no, the planning time, construction, testing, and commissioning for Krake wouldn't have been reasonably fit into their schedule "all of the sudden." It just doesn't work like that.

Have you got ANY proof for this, or are you just guessing?

They aren't stupid - which is why they don't take any project "less seriously" than others. They are very meticulous, from beginning to the end. It isn't as simple as just clicking pieces from a menu and watching it built, Ben.

Well, duh.

But, to say Krake would have taken as much work as, say, Leviathan, is um, stupid. It's simply NOT as complex a structure. A bungalow is going to take less work than a skyscraper.

I really don't understand how someone who has been here as long as you have can sit back and trivialize the design process it takes to build roller coasters, especially from companies like B&M. These attractions are planned years and years in advance - they aren't just thought up and contracted overnight.

I... don't get what World you're living in where two years is "overnight". You're saying there is simply no room for change in B&M's timings, with NO evidence to suggest this is true.

If that's really, truly what you believe, then fine.

I never said it was what I believed happend, I had a problem with your out of hand, absolute dismissal of something that IS possible.

I'd love to see your proof. It makes me laugh how when people have points that can't be verified, you feel the need to just go "NO MINE IS RIGHT!"

 

[marc]

I wish I had not said anything about it now lol.

 

[Mike T]

Some of you people really surprise me. One topic you make an educated point - then the next you're trying to defend a theme park conspiracy. Take it from somebody who has had experience in the planning and development stages on theme park attractions - and quit while you're down. I can guarantee you that your little theories are NOT how Merlin came about the conception of Krake, and to even suggest so puts you back down into the freshman, "I think I'm an amusement industry expert", category within the ranks of this forum.

Job well done UC

 

[marc]

Mike as I said I was only repeating what I was told, UC explained stuff and it's all clear now.

Not many people know the planning and that it can take 4 years to design things.

As I said UC cleared this up for me. I now know not to believe things I am told by people who think they know. At the time the story did fit though.