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rtotheizzo17 said:
Sounds like we need a seperate thread titled: Muslim intergration and why Islamic cultures demand equality in their new homes while they murder non converters in their own? :)

Furie (or Snoo), in the interest of educational conversation: how much of the last 50 years has been overt oppression by white leaders, vs victim mentality of black society (im guessing the truth lies in the middle)?

We have seen other cultures immigrate en mass to America over the last 50 years, who have faced harsh stereotypes and discrimination, but seem to work hard and integrate into commuities, while also bringing their own "flair"?

That's about race and culture though.

I have no problem dating my partner of 3 years who has a Muslim father.

I have no problem hiring muslims for my business

I have no problem shopping at shops owned by muslims or eating at restaurants and helping their businesses

it's literally the religion factor
 
rtotheizzo17 said:
Furie (or Snoo), in the interest of educational conversation: how much of the last 50 years has been overt oppression by white leaders, vs victim mentality of black society (im guessing the truth lies in the middle)?

Three sides to every story; yours, theirs and the truth :)

The reality is that it's such a subtle and complex thing that it can't really be measured. That's why I believe that everything should be kind of stamped out. Negative attitudes in any way - whether it's a statement based on ignorance or the actions of a community or community leader.

rtotheizzo17 said:
We have seen other cultures immigrate en mass to America over the last 50 years, who have faced harsh stereotypes and discrimination, but seem to work hard and integrate into commuities, while also bringing their own "flair"?

Taking my IRA thing into account. If you walk down the street in the middle of the day, can you go "avoid that guy, he's obviously Irish and could have a bomb on him?"

No, but if somebody looks different then it's so much easier to have a negative opinion. That's why race (and creed if you have an outward sign of your religion) are treated differently - they're clearly "not the same".

I also understand the endemic racist attitude and it really frustrates me. I grew up in a very racist environment in the 70's; small town white Northern England, good Christian upbringing and all the bigotry the world could offer.
I could never understand the hatred towards the very few Asians that moved in during the 70's. Windows smashed, people beaten up and abuse on the street was pretty much a daily occurrence for them. I was always really curious as to why this happened and why I wasn't allowed to interact with the kids.

Then when I was about 7 or 8, a new lad came into the class. He was a refugee from Bangladesh and his family had recent come over to join family. I gave up my play times to spend the 20 minutes morning and afternoon with him to help teach him English to to help him feel integrated into the school. He didn't know any English at all, so it was tough going for along while. He moved school after about three or four months and he was doing quite well in terms of his speech.

It wasn't pure altruism anyway, it was as much curiosity. I wanted to know what made these people different? Why did my friendship cause horror? Why were they picked on and bullied? What exotic life did they come from? Why were the church leaders concerned about it?

The answers of course are: Nothing. Racism. Racism. Destitution. Bigotry/Religious arrogance.

Though at that age I didn't have the words to express these things. He'll likely have his own family now, potentially even grand children. I hope that they never have to experience what his family did and I hope that he forgives those who persecuted him and his family while he was growing up. If not, then the bad feelings will pass down the generations and I know for a fact that people of my age STILL hold the racist opinions they held back then. They just keep quiet about it these days to stay out of trouble - or they move on to hating religions as it isn't racism.

I have no doubt that the reverse is true in other countries. Gavin experienced it in Korea. Being a minority where you're clearly different makes you a target. It helps unite the majority and I feel very strongly that it should always be stopped - dead.

It takes no effort to not say anything bad about somebody, but it can take somebody else a life time to regain a reputation.

This is the kind of thing you can't understand as a majority (and I feel patronising in even trying - there are few whiter, comfortably off and living on the fat of the business land than I), but I want to and I want others too as well.

Stand up for yourself, yes. Love and defend what is yours, yes. Do it by saying bad things about people you've never met and who will never have an affect on your comfortable life? No!
 
Furie, with all due respect I think it's time to lock this down now. It's way off topic and arguments could get heated about such a touchy subject. I'm in no means trying to kick off a forum race war or offend anybody in the slightest.

I think we leave it and we move on.

I regret even opening up this can or worms
 
Dang, I've just woken up from my 10 hour sleep, and the number of posts on here doubled. It's either some of us are great debaters, or some of us just really hate eachother.

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Why do you keep insisting this get locked up and thrown away? The only time I have seen them lock threads is when people are attacking each other in the photo threads, or when a duplicate topic is made. That is until you started requesting swinger sessions. :)

I have found the last 6 pages very informative. Its no doubt a sticky subject, but until people can start articulating their true feelings on it progress wont be made.
 
I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of why the riots are happening or how to prevent future inequalities, but I think the discussion is generally healthy(ish) and we may crack a thing or two as long as people can remain calm and reasonable.

We just need to keep in mind that the topic is the rioting in the US and the general issues surrounding that and why it's maybe happening.

We had a similar thing about the London riots and it was mainly "Chav arseholes!" and nobody got offended :lol:
 
I'd prefer to have it closed because everything has been off topic after page 2

personally I also find this subject to be way more taboo than swinging etc.

People are looking at my arguments all wrong.

I have a problem with the people threatening our country. The ring leaders which are obviously brain washing some of the regular British muslims. Once societies get infiltrated then you've no idea what can happen.

now I'm hardly going to start petitioning for anything to be done but I am wary that it's an issue.

I also hate the way that other cultures openly criticise mine without any repercussions but as soon as you criticise others you're a racist.

For example Snoo can openly say he doesn't like the way he's been treated by white policemen and everyone is all sympathetic. I say I'm not happy with the way Islamic terrorists are threatening our country and I'm a racist.

It's always been the same though hasn't it. I mean during my very first year of full time employment I worked in sales and most of my mates were black/Asian. Now during the first 6 months or so they pretty much solely referred to me as 'little white boy'... Obviously pretty funny and I wasn't gonna complain but if it was the other way around there would be serious consequences.

Another perfect example. I had two very good friends that I worked with for four years. We all started around the same time. A Muslim male who we will name A and and English female who we'll name B.

They dated for four years but he was always too scared to introduce her to his family. He shared a great relationship with her family. So one day they wanted to get more serious and move in together. He finally introduced her and he was forbidden to date white women as it wasn't 'tradition'. They split up and the next month his parents got him an arranged marriage I'm which he now has a child.

He's cheating on his Asian wife every week with a white woman and has stated bluntly that his father sorted the arrange marriage so that his friebds daughter could live in England and get away from Pakistan. Effectively ruining a perfectly good relationship between two individuals that had worked hard and we're very happy. On top of this brought in to the country someone that speaks no word of English and has no intention of ever working and bring a new baby into a relationship full of unhappiness. Fair or unfair? Racist for me to think negatively of these beliefs?

A pakistani family not allowing their son to date white women is tradition. Me Not allowing my daughter to date muslims in the future is racist...

Muslims are no more harshly treated than anyone else in this country. The racism card gets played far too often. Look at the debacle that was the John Terry situation a couple years ago. Tried to ruin his entire career over nothing
 
How about "stop making it about you and let the topic go back on track as I was directing it"?

It's worth a shot.

Unless you are making a point that actually relates to the US riots or works on potential reasons for them, please keep it to p.m. or make a new topic.

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Chris, have you seen Four Lions? I think you might enjoy it XD

To keep this on topic though, I do see where people are coming from with the argument of people jumping on the 'this happened because he was black'. I am in no way doubting that there is racism in the police force in America. There just is, it's a cultural thing to do with what Furie was speaking about and how these different races haven't been integrated for that long. Ignoring that fact, I want to talk about something that I always experience at work that is sort of a vicious cycle.

I try really hard not to be racist. I am careful about what I say and try to check myself so as not to be offensive. But whenever I get a group of young black guys sit down at my table at work, I die a little inside because I know from experience that the likelihood of there being trouble just got a lot higher. A lot of the time they are very rude, they are difficult and demanding, they very very rarely leave a tip and above all are very intimidating, especially if something goes wrong (the same goes for those in the traveling community). And I hate myself for thinking that, because a lot of the time I'll approach them and they'll actually turn out to be a really lovely group of guys who I just made a judgement on for the colour of their skin. But this does not negate the fact that a lot of the time prejudices are there for a reason. If I have served enough tables of young black guys and more often than not they're a pain in the arse to serve, it is only human nature to begin to assume that of ALL the guys who sit down on my tables, a kind of guilty until proven innocent sentiment. And that is very awful because it means that 'the nice ones' get tarred with that brush too.

Unfortunately I think if you've been brought up in a family like mine where everybody is white and has white friends and goes to white schools and has white family friends etc, it is very difficult not to have your brain set to a kind of 'racist' default. Now when I say racist don't mean leaving burning crosses in my neighbours gardens, but I mean things like what I just explained where I make presumptions about people based on their skin colour. That is what racism is, and unfortunately it is insidious, especially in predominately white communities. The way to tackle it, I find, is to take a step back and try to see the bigger picture and ask yourself 'am I being racist?' It happens. I have racist thoughts all the time, because it is ingrained into my default psyche to think that way. It doesn't make me a terrible person, but what I do have to do is acknowledge that this way of thinking is ignorant and wrong and correct myself.

But the bottom line is, some people are just ****. And that is a fact that transpires all genders, races, religions etc. The difference is it is not this deciding factor that makes them a ****, they just also happen to fall into that category.
 
Recognizing and acknowledging our faults is always the first and hardest step, no matter what we are talking about. Unlike many people, they either don't recognize or have a problem with these feelings. I commend you for stepping back and realizing what we do, what we ALL do to be honest.
 
One thing is for sure in this country though. For every 1 black gang member or knife crime etc you've got 20 white scum bags committing benefit fraud or sitting in there council houses with 6 kids with no intention of ever contributing to our economy.

I'd take our government sorting out that issue as I've got no problem with anyone else. It may be different the closer you get to London but up here in newcastle there's barely any racism.

It's chavs that I want gone.

The main issue in America is that it's almost impossible to get out of your social circle. The rich are born into rich families and therefore obtain better educations and receive more opportunities. So just by that you're almost at a handicap because you'll never have as good a skill set.

On the plus however I feel is that there are now many black role models throughout the world. More black people in places of power and as the generations move on this issue will slowly be eradicated.

On the flip side though I absolutely think that black people play the race card too often. Whether that's because they're genuinely insecure or just doing it because they know they can is a very fine line based on the personal experiences of the person in question.

For example if Snoo has been singled out by police then I completely see why he'd be apprehensive and insecure about the issue.

However

As mentioned earlier if Anton Ferdinand as perfectly happy to hurl abuse at John Terry for X amount of minutes and then he retaliates with a single comment, for that comment and issue to dwell on for over a year and nearly cost someone their entire career just comes across as ridiculously petty when Anton has not been held back in the slightest by his colour. It makes the issue even worse when you've got 20,000 black Chelsea fans supporting the white guy in the argument...
 
^Yep, I think that football story links in to how I feel about this well.

The problem with things like this is if it happens to a minority the minority will use whatever it is that makes them a minority as the reason it has happened to them and to call it an injustice. Everyone does this, blacks, homos, women... I could happily sit at work and abuse the straight guy I sit next to for being a minge muncher, but if he turned around and said anything homophobic to me I could start a HR campaign against him and probably get him fired.

Obviously I won't but as long as people can, some will. This kid was shot for being an idiot, not for being black, but all of a sudden it's a cause. That's not to say racism shouldn't be tackled, it should, but this isn't the way to do it.

If they want to protest against the way minorities are treated by the police, great, do it, but don't use some scummy person as your martyr.

What happened to the days of genuine black heroes doing the right thing? We need more Martin Luther Kings, less a black kid who got shot for being a dick, which happens to everyone of all colours in America by the looks of it (which surely on its own is something to be concerned about? 500 people shot by police every year in America when they're not armed, that's ludicrous).

I have so many thoughts on this, and as another minority, it does annoy me when people use it to be dicks.
 
Snoo said:
Recognizing and acknowledging our faults is always the first and hardest step, no matter what we are talking about. Unlike many people, they either don't recognize or have a problem with these feelings. I commend you for stepping back and realizing what we do, what we ALL do to be honest.

The problem that many run into is when you try and articulate natural human tendencies like Nadro mentioned, you are attacked, put down, and in some cases could lose your lively hood. It happened to some extent in this thread, when McgoughChris started criticizing the Muslim population in England. Obviously there are intelligent people like yourself, in all shades of color, but for the most part the most oppressed function in racial understanding is basic dialogue.

There have been studies that have found that babies as young as 3 months tend to shy away from people of different color. It is a cavemen esque instinct, similar to how most males become alpha dominant and want to spread their seed, especially around attractive females. As society progresses we will get better at working through these issues, but im not sure we will ever reach that Star Trek level of society.

Side bar to Ben's point above (kind of). I have gone back and forth on the militarization and incarceration of people in this country. On the one hand, as a borderline Libertarian I think the police aggression has crossed the line somewhere in 1965. On the other hand, with the state of the global economy as it is, and real unemployment at levels that havent been this high since the 50's, what would 99% of the people locked up provide if back on the streets? There is already not enough of the pie to go around in the current state of affairs. :|

And one last item I missed. The whole whatever class you are born into is the highest (or lowest) you can go is nonsense. There millions (billions?) of dollars poured into social programs for poor youth, particularly inner-city minorities. Schools with mostly minority populations often end up with the most $$$ per student. At what point do you stop blaming the social assistance, and start blaming the culture?
 
Ben said:
^Yep, I think that football story links in to how I feel about this well.

The problem with things like this is if it happens to a minority the minority will use whatever it is that makes them a minority as the reason it has happened to them and to call it an injustice. Everyone does this, blacks, homos, women... I could happily sit at work and abuse the straight guy I sit next to for being a minge muncher, but if he turned around and said anything homophobic to me I could start a HR campaign against him and probably get him fired.

Obviously I won't but as long as people can, some will. This kid was shot for being an idiot, not for being black, but all of a sudden it's a cause. That's not to say racism shouldn't be tackled, it should, but this isn't the way to do it.

If they want to protest against the way minorities are treated by the police, great, do it, but don't use some scummy person as your martyr.

What happened to the days of genuine black heroes doing the right thing? We need more Martin Luther Kings, less a black kid who got shot for being a dick, which happens to everyone of all colours in America by the looks of it (which surely on its own is something to be concerned about? 500 people shot by police every year in America when they're not armed, that's ludicrous).

I have so many thoughts on this, and as another minority, it does annoy me when people use it to be dicks.


Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, the most often these issues get brought to light is when they occur within poverty stricken areas filled with people of color. They tend to do stupid things such as this because of the lack of local education and frustration with their entire situation.

Sadly, because many people feel there is no divide between the races, if someone who speaks out unrelated to situations such as this, they get looked at as racist. The days of MLK Jr are unfortunately long gone.

I will say that during my lifetime, things have changed, but not enough for enough people. The fact that I have lived a mostly suburban life in diverse communities and still experience these types of issues still speaks volumes to the situation here in America.

rtotheizzo17 said:
And one last item I missed. The whole whatever class you are born into is the highest (or lowest) you can go is nonsense. There millions (billions?) of dollars poured into social programs for poor youth, particularly inner-city minorities. Schools with mostly minority populations often end up with the most $$$ per student. At what point do you stop blaming the social assistance, and start blaming the culture?

I wouldn't say that is the case in a lot of areas I've been involved with. For instance, I did grow up in a better district with better teachers and a much better situation. I've also visited those inner city schools where they didn't have a computer lab, they had a 40:1 teacher ratio (my school was around 20-25:1), and these kids, unfortunately, need to get themselves out of their situation. If they don't, they get stuck in the never ending cycle of poverty that has evolved over the last few generations.
 
Those are the exact points I made about Muslim religion and I was called a racist lol

The situation won't ever be resolved in our lifetime as too many people have formulated too many different opinions, they're always going to clash.

I teach my kids to have respect for all races but as long as the media hypes things up in search of ratings and as long as there's incidents happening in the world then people will develop their own opinions with pros and cons on all forms of races and religions.

Unless people are brainwashed into all having the same thoughts and opinions then there'll always be conflict. You'll always have that one dick head that knows he can get a rise out of people by making a racist remark. Similarly you'll always have your one black/muslim/Jewish/white/whatever using the fact that he's been 'bullied' as a way of getting attention and potentially receiving some form of compensation
 
You also began this discussion with

Although there's far worse issues in this country at the moment! Namely Muslims , who are unbearable to the point where they deserve to be ridiculed. Their behaviour us radical beyond the point of any normal thinking human being

So, no, not really. You didn't lead with the same points at all.
 
BBH said:
You also began this discussion with

Although there's far worse issues in this country at the moment! Namely Muslims , who are unbearable to the point where they deserve to be ridiculed. Their behaviour us radical beyond the point of any normal thinking human being

So, no, not really. You didn't lead with the same points at all.

I admit this was worded badly. But again it doesn't say that it ridicules a race. I stand by the fact that the Muslim religion is out of control.

I'm not talking about your well respected Asian men that have came to the country and improved it by adapting and getting fantastic jobs like doctors, solicitors, accountants, IT engineers etc.

I'm talking about your naive Muslim that when he gets down on his luck he can be lead astray.

As long as people go quietly about their business then it's fine! As we've all agreed though that isn't the case AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME!

Again though, it could be white Muslim, black Muslim, Asian Muslim... so its not racist as it has nothing to do with race.

I just don't think religion adds anything to our current society. In the past I can see why it came in to play but now that there's a justice system and on the whole the human population thinks more rationally it just serves no purpose.

I guess this is to do with people's expectations though. If you think logically about the point of life it's basically just to keep our species alive. Everything in life is human created anyway... Money, language, numbers etc all created by man and given values. The earth is like a giant ant farm but with the added incentive of being able to choose your social status within it. Everybody plays a role whether that is being a fantastic mind and trying to cure disease, experimenting with new technology, space travel or working as a cashier at mcdonalds and serving people food.

As long as you're playing a role in society then I have no issue. At the end of the day when you're dead and gone then that is it, there's nothing more, you've played your role. Moat great things that we do come from human emotion.

We build technology for excitement.

We try to cure cancer out of fear.

We work hard to earn more money out of pride.

Now religion doesn't fit into this at all. It doesn't teach you anything, it's not beneficial towards completely goals. It certainly isn't beneficial to the survival of our species. It's all basically a set of rules and regulations on what you can and can not do. Other than that it's just a set of short stories with no living sources to confirm whether they're works of fiction or not.

I could start a religion tomorrow called McGoughism and no doubt some nutters would end up following it. If it gives them hope and motivation then fantastic, if not then what's the point!

What exactly is Christianity motivating people to do? Except for wasting their time praying to a God that may or may not be real. You gonna waste your entire life in hope that something might be real even though there's no fact behind it.

The overall point is that so many people even in this day and age as ever dying needlessly through religion. People that could be useful had they fulfilled their potential and used their energy in other areas.

The only thing that's worth anything on this planet is time! Time is the one thing that can't be bought and once time catches up with you it effectively makes you more and more helpless. The only thing we can do is use the time we do have to work to the best of our abilities and make things better for the next generation. Obviously trying to gain as much enjoyment and self satisfaction along the way

I'm probably digging myself a bigger hole here and end up making a lot of enemies but I'm a logical man that has his priorities straight.
 
I agree on religion not having any purpose in our daily lives. However, that's society as a whole. In a free state, you can't force people into a certain religion or lack thereof. Some people depend on religion for moral/emotional support or as a source of comfort or confidence. To take that away would be grossly inhumane.
 
Here's a tough question mate.

In X amount of years when this planet is grossly over populated and/or running out of resources then who makes the tough calls. All the decisions that get made by the people in power are to satisfy people's emotions!

You say inhumane but also agree that it's illogical to our existence. So who makes the decision to phase it out? Or do we just pander to it because people think it's the right thing to do and no one has the bottle to do what's logical
 
Religion, as a whole, will be around for years to come simply because it gives some people hope, closure, and a means to make themselves feel like they are good people. It has helped countless people through hard times, and helps people base decisions on their day to day lives. At the same time, we get to your side of the argument as well McGChris, and you have the people that use religion to either push an agenda, push on their own beliefs onto others, or use it as a reason to make them feel superior to those around them; however, those people are getting fewer and fewer as those types of extremists are either weeded out or exonerated from the church/power.

Granted Im with you McGough, and chose to not follow any given religion.

Its the funny thing about free will, we are given the ability to think and chose what we want to follow to pander to our current wants and needs, yet some of us just simply chose to follow anothers words and wisdom.

As for the original topic at hand, I will simply state that the Media saw an oppurtunity, and the took it and ran with it. With more and more autopsy reports and the changing of "eye-witness" accounts (they changed the story from "We saw..." to "This is what we heard...."), the situation is playing less and less in what the protesters were originally fighting for, and is making their original cause moot. While black racism is STILL rampant within the US (I still see people getting pulled over in Canfield for D.W.B), it is becomming less prominent as other minority issues are taking the spotlight (specifically Equal Rights and Immigration specifically within the states), until a major incident like this happens.

Idk, I really dont try and follow many of these types of things as it is typically very one sided in how it is presented, and the resulting arguments and bickering online tend to just paint a very drastic picture that gets pushed until the other side gets louder than their rivals.

I actually surprised myself with even responding to this thread (as Ive been following it since it started, and kept trying to make a comment followed by me deleting it as I figured I had nothing really to give in this thread).
 
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