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32 hurt in Big Dipper Crash

I thought the 1st time the PMBO one crashed was due to the brakes being off or something. I have to admit I have never seen 2 trains running at the same time, but I do not go there often so probably did not even notice.

Its not very good really the number of crashes that have happened at the park.

H&S is a lot harder these days so I think they will be told to change. Who knows.

I don't care if it takes an extra 2 minutes for the train to be dispatched if it means there is no way they can crash.
 
Thing is Big Dipper dosen't have any electronic blocking (or does it?) so there probably wasn't anything telling the ride ops that ride had stopped, the ride is so long length wise its hard to see if it has stalled.
Guess it means they'll have to install CCTV or something so they can see the far part of the ride.
 
Another article has been posted on the BBC website regarding a fault which occured earlier on the same day but BPB are stating it was unrelated to the crash.

Mr Cam said: "There was a report of a problem earlier on and the technical team effected some repairs and immediately reopened the ride, absolutely confident that it was perfectly right to do so.

"Now that was wholly unrelated to the incident that happened in the evening.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 198508.stm
 
Dave said:
Thing is Big Dipper dosen't have any electronic blocking (or does it?) so there probably wasn't anything telling the ride ops that ride had stopped, the ride is so long length wise its hard to see if it has stalled.
Guess it means they'll have to install CCTV or something so they can see the far part of the ride.
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Yes Dave which is why a lot of people are a bit shocked they can allow 2 trains on the track at the same time.

I know Bicko has said its always been done that way, but this can show what can happen.
 
In the BBC article a spokesman said they had a number of safety systems in place.

Mr Cam explained that the ride has a number of safety systems in place including a "pull-up chain which acts as a brake" and a signalling system to direct when carriages move.
Click to expand...
 
I think they will make the dispatch times slightly slower, not sure exactly what else will change.

I doubt they will run it with one train sat waiting in the station waiting for the next train to arrive back, because it would be pointless and with its manual braking, increase the chances of a crash in the station.

It'll be interesting to see what changes are made.
 
In a situation like Big Dippers, being less technical with block systems, the second train should only dispatch when the first one has arrived at the breakrun, I really can't understand why the operators would dispatch number 2 when train number 1 is not even in sight.. :?
 
Bicko said:
I think they will make the dispatch times slightly slower, not sure exactly what else will change.
Click to expand...

They don't need to make the dispatch times slower. There is a signal which tells the ops that the train is approaching the final brakes. All they need to do is MAKE SURE they stop the other train cresting the lift hill if they don't hear that signal. I realise this is easier said than done because you can't see the lift hill from the station but it should be possible. Even if it means another sensor on the lift and a simple logic box wired into the lift motor that says: IF train at top of lift BEFORE other train passes last sensor THEN stop lift.

They had a long time to notice the problem between dispatch and top of lift. 1 minute and 10 seconds to be precise, but operating rides is intensive work and they missed it.

Anyway, if anyone is still in doubt about what happenned, don't worry the Mirror are here for you:

The Mirror - Educating the Masses

So it was those pesky brakes on the front car.. Someone should have just put the other car in reverse and backed out of that situation.
 
All this talk of Dispatch times. I do not like the idea that they are dispatching anything before they should be. In fact, screw the dispatch times, I would rather know that I am safe if it's all the same. The regular public might be totally unaware of how block braking works and so on but I am not. It is done for a reason... TO KEEP US SAFE!

It is all very well that their dispatch times have been absolutely wonderful Bicko, but at what cost?

It's not like this is the first high profile accident the park has seen. And the fact that they haven't changed their operating policies after the accidents to me suggests sheer negligence and greed. Most people tend to learn from their mistakes and make the relevant changes. Which is certainly a step to stopping it ever happening again. Naturally, there is no way to totally ensure no accident occurs, but surely, not making any attempt to improve procedures is an accident waiting to happen; again and again and again.
 
Few things that need clearing up.

It's doubtful it was 32 people. Each train can hold 24 people and the second train (apparently confirmed reports) was empty.

Also, apparently (not confirmed, but Bicko may be able to)- there's a sensor on the turnaround that sends an alert to the station.

It means that the train has passed a point where it will be back in the station before the second train is off the lift hill. So there's your blocking.

I assume what has happened (assumptions are bad, I know) is that the first train tripped the sensor, so the next train was dispatched. The problem is that the op then didn't notice (for whatever reason) that the first train hadn't returned by the time the second train left the hill.

He had about a minute to realise - to be honest, that's really not very long.

This smells of a classic kind of "bug in the system". The system tells the op WHEN it's okay to send the next train, but not IF it's okay to let it go.

To mirror comments on TTF at the moment, I think it's pretty bad that PBB aren't cooperating at all with the media on this. No official statement from them and a blanket ban on all reporting/communication with the press. Don't they see how bad this looks?
 
Furie it has now been confirmed that it was 21 people.

I know what you mean about the sensor, but there is still no way to stop a train once it has left the lift hill until the final brake run. So say it passed the senor and then gets stuck, as what happened in this case (we think) all the ops can do is sit and watch the crash happen.

The question is was the sensor working? and was the work that was carried out during the day on the same part of the track where the problem happened?

Ride ops are under pressure in just about every park to get the trains loaded and get them on their way. The problem on the older coasters like this is the fact they are no computer controlled so mistakes can happen.

So in a way it would always be safter to let the 2nd train go once the 1st one is back. This avoids any risk of 2 trains crashing, and for the sake of an extra minute I would not mind. On most coasters we are left sitting there in the station waiting for the other train to get to the brake run.

All I am saying is I think they will get told to change the way the trains get dispatched. Which other park has had this number of coaster crashes?
 
The earlier fault was apparently a brake failure in the station area - so unrelated. Just run of the mill stuff the media has pounced on and made 2 and 2 equal DEATH!

I agree on the timing thing. That's what I said, the system says "okay to go", but the ride op needs to say "safe to go" (ie the first train is on the brake run).

It means that the system is dependent on the ride op, who must have failed here. Well, we can speculate this, but certainly there should be no way two trains are within the same section at the same time.

The Blackpool system assumes a safe return and assumes the ride op will notice a lack of safe return.

The procedure is flawed, and as Mark says - the procedures are to keep us safe, not to despatch quicker!
 
Problem with most things is people become complacent.

The op has probably done loads of trains and just becomes like a robot, light or sound press the button off the next train goes. No need to check as its never gone wrong before, if you know what I mean.

We have all done it and been there, I know I do at work sometimes. I have done a task a million times before but it goes wrong once then you think god I will check this and that next time.
 
Basically, it's people relying too much on technology, which is no replacement for human sight and common sense.
 
Its no wonder it crashed with stats like this.

bigdipperstats.png
 
Hell, that's not the most intense coaster there, go on Infusion the tallest SLC in the country & only ride over water, which pulls 38G.
 
jokerman said:
Basically, it's people relying too much on technology, which is no replacement for human sight and common sense.
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I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here....

What were saying is that they should wait until the bell has sounded, and have visual sight of the train coming back or entering the brakes before dispatching the train.

What happened here might be just complancy.
 
^That's what I'm saying. Whoever dispatched the train assumed that because the bell sounded, it was safe. They didn't use their own sight, and therefore missed the fact that it wasn't safe. This might just be the way they are taught to do it, so it isn't necessarily the fault of the ride op, but the training should now be changed.
 
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