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What Started As A Matterhorn Question And Is Now A Merged General Discussion On What Counts as Coaster Credit

This one's a bit harder to call... I won't be counting it as a new cred personally, but can see why people would... After all, if that new steel was placed in Flamingoland, we'd all count it...

I just think counting it opens up so many questions... How much wood does a park have to replace on a woodie in closed season for it to be a new cred? How much track do BPB have to change in the closed season for it to be a new cred? When BPB have finished their retracking campaign, is PMBO a new cred then? All new steel...
 
If all that new steel was placed at Mingo, nobody would count it or ride it because there would be no brake run, ride platform or lift hill.
Never counted a cred in my life...but this isn't one...
"One, two, add a few, nineteen twenty" comes to mind if you count this as a new cred!
 
See how complicated it all is. you can't even decide amongst yourselves what is and isn't counted.

Come over to my (and @rob666's) side. No clones, no relocations, no arguments (no counting even) - it's so much easier ;)
 
rob666 said:
If all that new steel was placed at Mingo, nobody would count it or ride it because there would be no brake run, ride platform or lift hill.
Never counted a cred in my life...but this isn't one...
"One, two, add a few, nineteen twenty" comes to mind if you count this as a new cred!
Click to expand...

Surely mingo would just buy those parts used for around £20M 😜😂
 
Crazycoaster said:
What about something like Tonnerre 2 Zeus, where the replacement track is adding slight changes to the layout?
Click to expand...

I'll certainly be counting it as new, as the differences are substantial enough. A good, what, 30-40%(?) of the track is seeing some reprofiling and/or redesign to the layout.

For the record, I haven't counted the Python retrack at Efteling (and so wouldn't count Nemesis or Hulk either I guess)
 
^ But then see Python technically is different too, as the entire thing has been reprofiled/heartlined. So really they have changed at least 30-40% of the track in the same way, maybe only slightly but still. It definitely provides a completely different riding experience.
 
Crazycoaster said:
^ But then see Python technically is different too, as the entire thing has been reprofiled/heartlined. So really they have changed at least 30-40% of the track in the same way, maybe only slightly but still. It definitely provides a completely different riding experience.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Python is a new cred. In the same way Hulk is.
 
Crazycoaster said:
^ But then see Python technically is different too, as the entire thing has been reprofiled/heartlined. So really they have changed at least 30-40% of the track in the same way, maybe only slightly but still. It definitely provides a completely different riding experience.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I didn't realise it had been reprofiled notably - I very much thought it was completely like-for-like.
That leaves me with some thinking to do there...
 
I didn't bother riding Python again to save myself from that particular dilemma. I think it says enough if you didn't even notice the change.

These retracks do feel a bit too much of a stretch to count for me, the parks are just doing what they need to do to preserve the ride. Maintenance, albeit on a grand scale. A cloudy territory we can't always measure.
I'll just stick to making up for them with other, equally questionable things instead.
 
It’s a complicated discussion, for sure!

As my initial basic rule; I won’t count anything not on RCDB. I think that would get me into too much of a grey area.

In terms of some of the most common Yes/No dilemmas:
  • Clones: Yes
  • Like-For-Like Retracks (e.g. Hulk, Nemesis): No
  • Relocations: No
  • Standup-to-Floorless Conversions: No
  • Powered Coasters: Yes
  • Alpine Coasters: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Dueling Coaster as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Mobius Loop as Multiple Credits: No
  • Addition of a New Element (e.g. the inversion and new trains to Hades 360): No
  • Ghost Trains with Drops: No
Talking in a slightly more nuanced light; I think my basic criteria for considering something a coaster would be:
  • On RCDB
  • Either does elements that feel uniquely coaster-like (e.g. banked turns), or in the case of water rides with airtime hills on drops, coasts upwards without hitting water directly afterwards (I think this is what Duane uses)
  • Has coaster-type hardware
In terms of the retrack dilemma; I’d say that something would have to be materially changed in terms of the basic experience compared to before for me to consider it a new credit. So for instance, if Nemesis was having its layout totally changed other than the lift hill, brake run and station, that would be a new credit. But the new Nemesis won’t feel materially different to the old one, so it’s no new credit in my eyes.

In terms of a dilemma I was wondering if you guys could chime in on; I’m headed to Europa in April. Atlantica SuperSplash, one of the water rides there, is technically considered a roller coaster by many, but I’m not sure it looks overly coaster-y; other than the airtime hill and the one bit where it coasts upwards in a straight line, it doesn’t really do anything that a regular shoot-the-chutes can’t. Do you think I should count it? I’ll admit I’m leaning towards Yes, as RCDB counts it, I haven’t seen any major debate about whether or not Atlantica is a coaster, and it does meet many of my criteria, but I’ll admit to being unsure… what do you guys think?

It’s so complicated… you’d think something like a roller coaster would be simple to classify, but there are so many grey areas! To be honest, I think I’m just going to use RCDB as the gospel on these matters for now, as it’s all a bit too complicated and has too many grey areas for me to make that determination on my own.
 
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Copying good ol' Matt here:

  • Clones: Yes
  • Like-For-Like Retracks (e.g. Hulk, Nemesis): No
  • Retracks with New Reprofiling (Python): No but I would rank the two separately
  • Relocations from permanent park to permanent park: Yes
  • Relocations from permanent park to travelling fair: Yes
  • Relocations from travelling fair to travelling fair: No
  • Relocations from travelling fair to permanent park: Yes
  • Matterhorns and Bayern Kurves: No
  • Cycle Monorails: No
  • Standup-to-Floorless Conversions: No
  • Powered Coasters: Yes
  • Alpine Coasters: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Dueling Coaster as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Mobius Loop as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Addition of a New Element (e.g. the inversion and new trains to Hades 360): No
  • Ghost Trains with Drops: No
  • Completely Flat Circles/Ovals: No
  • Ridgeriders: Yes
  • Specially built ziplines: Currently undecided
  • A coaster being removed from the park then built back up again after some period of being gone: No
  • A relocation within the park: No
  • Trains: No
  • Cars: No
  • Trams: No
  • Bobkarts: No
  • The Polar Express: No (even with its coaster section)
  • The spinny chair I'm currently in: No
  • The emotional roller coaster we call life: No
 
  • Clones: Yes
  • Like-For-Like Retracks (e.g. Hulk, Nemesis): No
  • Retracks with New Reprofiling (Python): No
  • Relocations from permanent park to permanent park: No
  • Relocations from permanent park to travelling fair: No
  • Relocations from travelling fair to travelling fair: No
  • Relocations from travelling fair to permanent park: No
  • Matterhorns and Bayern Kurves: No
  • Cycle Monorails: No
  • Standup-to-Floorless Conversions: No
  • Powered Coasters: No
  • Alpine Coasters: No
  • Separate Sides of a Dueling Coaster as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Mobius Loop as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Addition of a New Element (e.g. the inversion and new trains to Hades 360): No
  • Ghost Trains with Drops: No
  • Completely Flat Circles/Ovals: No
  • Ridgeriders: No
  • Specially built ziplines: N0
  • A coaster being removed from the park then built back up again after some period of being gone: No
  • A relocation within the park: No
  • Bobkarts: No
 
  • Clones: Yes
  • Like-For-Like Retracks (e.g. Hulk, Nemesis): Yes
  • Retracks with New Reprofiling (Python): Yes
  • Relocations from permanent park to permanent park: No
  • Relocations from permanent park to travelling fair: No
  • Relocations from travelling fair to travelling fair: No
  • Relocations from travelling fair to permanent park: No
  • Matterhorns and Bayern Kurves: No
  • Cycle Monorails: No
  • Standup-to-Floorless Conversions: No (although haven't ridden one to be sure on this)
  • Powered Coasters: Yes
  • Alpine Coasters: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Dueling Coaster as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Separate Sides of a Mobius Loop as Multiple Credits: Yes
  • Addition of a New Element (e.g. the inversion and new trains to Hades 360): No
  • Ghost Trains with Drops: No
  • Completely Flat Circles/Ovals: No
  • Ridgeriders: No
  • Specially built ziplines: Undecided
  • A coaster being removed from the park then built back up again after some period of being gone: No
  • A relocation within the park: No
  • Bobkarts: Yes
 
I guess the newest quirk is the like-for-like retrack (Hulk, Nemesis, etc.). While I still defer to my original answer of "what do you want to count?", I'd also trend on the "no" answer. Again, to perceived reality/difference from one roller coaster to the next - if there is substantively no difference in the ride experience and setting (aside from the theming upgrades, separate to the coaster track), did you experience a new credit?

Or, put a different way through different thought exercise, if someone rode original Hulk, went into a coma, came out of the coma and rode new Hulk again, without being told the coaster had been retracked - did they substantively experience two different roller coasters?

It's a splitting hairs scenario, granted - but one that shouldn't keep you up at night about that plus one. :p
 
For me I think a complete rebuild is a new credit. With Hulk, for example, we’re not talking about a Ship of Theseus situation. They knocked down the old Hulk, and built a whole new one in the same place. It’s a clone of itself, so it’s a +1.

If grumpy cat’s owner gets a clone of grumpy cat, it’s still a new cat, even if it goes poo in the same litter box.
 
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