Tell me... Montu or Nemesis?

[Mark]

I definately do not dispute that. Really it is down to the people who have ridden both that can actually make a fair comparison and from what I have been told and what I can summise the Americans that have ridden Nemesis love it.

 

[marc]

tbh I feel from being on both they are totally different it terms of theming and how they feel.

Nemesis you feel closed in its in a vally and tight space. So people from the usa probably like this as they are used to being on rides outside on flat land. Just my view really.

Montu feels more spread out more light and sun just more open like most rides in Orlando.

 

[Scott88]

I'm not saying Nemesis isn't good, but the fact that MANY (not all, but many) people in the U.K. haven't ridden anything up to it's decent level definately plays a part in the extreme exaggeration of it's reputation.

Maybe you americans are hyping it up too much before you've actually been on it? You should just take our opinions of Nemesis on board, get on the ride yourself and then give a judgement.

Nemesis is bloody amazing but because of its constant high ratings first time riders are expecting too much.

 

[Mark]

The Americans that have ridden Nemesis say it's a great ride - most of them just don't understand all the hype that comes with it. One quote I remember from a friend I spoke to about it was as such:

"Nemesis was awesome, but about it's cult-following? I don't get it. It's just another awesome ride with a bit of theming."

And this leads us back to your originally comment about us not really having anything to compare it to. Which there isn't. No wonder Nemesis is so highly rated in the UK and amongst the UK fans (especially those who have never ridden outside of the UK)

The only real comparison in this country that can be made is with Nemesis Inferno and this is hardly a fair one because of who different they are.

Point being, Nemesis has achieved cult status because as UC said, we really don't have much to compare it to. That doesn't make it any less of a ride. It jsut explains why we are all so hyped about it.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

No ones arguing against that though UC.

I think Nemesis 'cult' following is a grand mix of things. It's mostly down to the fact that it is the best coaster in terms of ... what really makes a good coaster in the UK. It is. There is no argument against that. My favourite may be Ultimate, but Nemesis IS the best coaster because of the facts about it's design.

But it's also down to how and when i was designed and built. And down to how Alton have yet to better it. Nemesis and it's followers got stuck in a rut with it and the fact that there is just SO much too it means that there is a lot to be obsessed about.

Nemesis also ticks all the right boxes.
It's a bit like Sonic fans with Sonic Adventure 2. It's not a fantastic game, but it ticks all the fight boxes in making a Sonic fan happy. The story line is awesome, there is the introduction of 2 fantastic new character designs, there are enough fast paced Sonic stages to keep us entertained, the music rocks, the list goes on. And sometimes when i play it, i wonder why it's obsessed over. And it's the same sometimes when i ride Nemesis.

Nemesis won't ever be coped because it's design is so specific to what Alton needed. I think that's also somthing pretty special.

 

[Jake]

I think Nemesis is a good coaster, but gets over rated so much.

But, thats probably because suspended/inverted coasters don't do that much for me anyway.

Its well landscaped, but doesn't have much themeing aside from the station really. People need to learn to distinguish the difference between scenery and themeing.

Also, its not one of those coasters that is constantly at its best. All the morning rides i've had on it have been slow and rough, whereas the later rides have been smooth and fast. I know coasters get better as they warm up, but the differences between my Nemesis experiences are pretty shocking actually.

So yeah, I think its a good coaster, but I don't think its our best.

 

[Stone Cold]

But Jake, surely that's a criticism you can level at Balder which has been rated as the best wooden coaster for the last two years!

Also, UC, I disagree with the claim that Nemesis is overhyped because it's the UK's only world class ride. (We'll conveniently pretend that Grand National and Megafobia don't exist!). The thing is that the GP rate Nemesis above taller, faster coasters which have launches as in the words of Jake "ones that have 15 'oops". The GP consistently rank Nemesis as their favourite coaster even though they are unaware of the history behind the ride, and perhaps even the AT height restrictions. Furthermore, most of the GP I've spoken to rate it as good anything they've ridden in Florida, which is noted for having some of the best steel coasters in the world.

Nemesis is number 4 on Mitch Hawker's steel poll, and whilst I realise that this is not the ultimate paragon of authority, it is the only steel coaster in the world to have been in the top ten every year that poll was taken. To get in the top ten, a coaster has to be damn good, not just good and have excessive fanboydom, or good and be unique to a particular country.

Furthermore, Nemesis offers a much classier package than Montu (or for that matter any other coaster I can name) everything about the ride is spot on. Whilst Nemesis is not my favourite coaster, I do think it a significantly more complete ride than most coasters. It would be hard to improve on Nemesis without completely changing the ride, however Montu could easily be improved, for example, removing the trim brakes!

Also, it is just me, or does Nemesis actually have a much better, coherent and original theme than Montu anyway? Some people make specious arguments along the lines of "well, it's not really themeing but a 60ft hole" but when you're being whipped through wingovers and loops at high speed and visualising an impending crash, you are reasonably unconcerned about what it is you are about to crash into. Not only that, but it does have themeing, Nemesis has the impressive station complete with fake B&M track, coloured waterfalls and even a bus suspended halfway down a cliff, how many other coasters have one of those? None, not even Italian Job: Stunt Track - and it was in the moive.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Stone Cold just owned everyone, even those who agreed.

Also, it is just me, or does Nemesis actually have a much better, coherent and original theme than Montu anyway?

As an artist, i'd like to be the devils advicate and point out that making somthing realistic is far harder than making it up. So, fneh? :?

Still. If anything, like UC pointed out before. Expidition Everest is an oustanding example of that. Montu's theme is overused and expected.

 

[Jake]

But Jake, surely that's a criticism you can level at Balder which has been rated as the best wooden coaster for the last two years!

You would have a point there, but fortunatly for me Balders "lame" morning rides are still much better than Nemesis after it's been running for 12 hours .

Nobody got owned Joey, I just think i've ridden coasters better than Nemesis. I never said it wasn't a good coaster!

 

[Anonymous]

Nemesis is number 4 on Mitch Hawker's steel poll, and whilst I realise that this is not the ultimate paragon of authority, it is the only steel coaster in the world to have been in the top ten every year that poll was taken. To get in the top ten, a coaster has to be damn good, not just good and have excessive fanboydom, or good and be unique to a particular country

Well, I think thats pretty easy to explain. Its the only coaster in the UK that deserves to be in the voting. Basicly, most UK voters will have voted it pretty high. I, as a german, can understand that. I vote for Geforce aswell (in that case most will not see that as patriotism I hope, because, come on, its true and you know it).
When the poll was opend first, it might have been on top of all lists, but, come on, look at the competitors in the top 10. Superman, Millenium Force, Geforce, Katun, Pyrenees and Sheikra. Nemesis, a good coaster, no doubt, but it just doenst belong in there anymore. Mitchs poll is based on Germans, English and Americans mostly. And they show their patriotism.
Most UK voters will try to keep nemesis up high in that poll. Not because its good (it is, without any doubt), but for the sheer fact thats its the only UK steel coaster deserving to be in that poll somehow.
What other UK steelie would you vote for otherwise? PMBO? Stealth? no.

Wait for next years poll. Black Mamba will be somewhere on top of the list. Just because alot of germans will show patriotism and vote for it. Easy as that



BTW, I voted for Montu. Its been my first ever B&M back in 1997. It was absolutely superb. Does anyone remember the gators under the turnaround?

I have to agree, it lost some of its magic when the mcb got stronger, but the small loop still has some great forces and the sidewing at the end is great. veeery disorentating. No need to comment on the Batwing, which is, without any doubt, the best element on any Invert. Montu is a true classic when it comes to Inverts. And, when people say B&M Inverts, Montu or Alpie are the ones that come to my mind first.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Once again, it all boils down to the fact that there aren't many, if any, other coasters in the U.K. deserving of high praise. Because of that, people cling to the ride they have - Nemesis is fantastic in the U.K., but let's face it - its fame would definately be diminished a little (if not alot) if it was located over here and had to compete with our rides.

I agree, sort of.

Nemesis does indeed get overhyped for being where it is, i agree. But if it was in the US it would be considered one of two things, sh!te or utterly amazing.

I think if Maverick turns out to be kick ass, i think it will do a lot for Nemesis' reputation... again.

Maverick kinda symbolises that idea that bigger doesn't always mean better. It embraces originality and combined concepts and themes that we, the designers and the general public know work well.

It's location is going to test to full power the argument European and mostly UK enthusiast's time and time again use 'proove' that EU coasters are just as good, if not better, than American ones. If Maverick turns out to be amazing, everything the US has over Europe doesn't really have as much worth anymore.

And, i think those Americans who do love it will in turn form a respect for European coasters they probably didn't even consider before. But hey, lets see, i bet Maverick turns out with crap reviews just to spite me.



And, just off the top of my head.

One of the things that makes Nemesis so good is it never lets up. It is excellent from beginning to end. It doesn't get off to a fantastic start... and then dwindle away to nothing. It's ruthless and powerful... And that's rare.

If Montu's ending cocks it up, that's dissopointing.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

In other words, it's not that we don't have a great respect for smaller coasters, just that we don't have as many good smaller coasters to respect.

But why do you think that is?

It's so easy to have the freedom to do whatever you like. Theres no real effort involved, no real thoughtful design, in creating an 'awesome' gigantic coaster. What's the first thing i did when i got RCT? I made like this massive version of Oblivion. It was huge. It was leathal and it was wholey pointless.

US coasters are stereotyped as these huge things with awesome first drops... And thats because the EU doesn't really have a lot of them to put to it's name, if any.

A lot of American enthusiasts, mostly younger ones i'll admit, only have one thing to say about European coasters. They are small and crap. And my point about Maverick is aimed at them. I think that fact that it's at CP would be a lot like TP spitting something wholey original and intricate out of their backsides. Maverick couldn't have been further from what anyone expected CP to build next.

I just think that if Maverick turns out to be awesome, it's going to lay more of a stable argument for EU enthusiasts to argue Europes worth. Most knowledgable enthusiasts accross the world, certainly older ones, are not who i'm talking about. But since i, you.. all of us on CF are part of a community of mostly teenage and erly 20's enthusiasts who care more about the fundimental fun of it all, it's the first thing that strikes me about Maverick.

Maybe a big part of me just wants to hate the rest of CP for the rest of my life, but i'm trying to be open minded.

At the end of the day it's an opinion and you're intitled, if not certainly expected, to think the oposite.

I don't know if you've already said it, but regardlesss of having only ridden one of the two what do you expect to be better UC?

 

[Stone Cold]

I think it is clear that a lot of people are obviously unaware of how Mitch Hawker's poll works, or more importantly how the way it works affects the coasters. The fact that Nemesis owns all other steel coasters in the UK (it's 50 places higher than it's nearest rival, Air) doesn't actually give it an advantage, it really is up there on its own merit. Any person who has only ridden coasters within the UK can only make sure it ranks as the highest UK placed coaster which could be anywhere, the fact that in head to head polls it beats every steel coaster below it except for Pyrenees means that internationally travelled enthusiasts rate it higher than other coasters. It beats coasters such as Storm Runner and S:ROS Darien Lake which are fairly obscure coasters to the GP or "beginner" UK enthusiast.

In fact, of the 26 pollers who had ridden both Montu and Nemesis, 17 of them preferred Nemesis, which suggests reasonably conclusively that Nemesis is the preferred coaster.

Also, can I just point out that Nemesis' drop is only 1ft smaller than that of B:TR and it's clones. Whilst America does have a compulsion for the biggest, fastest and tallest rides, they also have a whole host of smaller rides, none of which of compare to Nemesis. This is definitely partly because AT's restrictions meant that it had to be built in a huge hole, which is an unecessary expense for a US park. However, the fact still remains that it is in a hole and that it rocks because of it!


Finally, UC, I do appreciate that most of the coasters in the top 10 weren't built in 1999 when the first poll was taken, which is the main reason that Nemesis is the only coaster that has always been in the top ten. Yet what is clear is that 4th is highrst place so far achieved by Nemesis when most other coasters normally slip year upon year. Look at Incredible Hulk, 3rd in '99, 28th last year! In fact, all four coasters above Nemesis in 1999 now rank much below it, this includes Montu which was 2nd place in 1999 and two years later had dropped to 18th. To be fair it's bounced back 10 places in the last three years, but it still ranks below Nemesis and rightly so.

 

[Anonymous]

They're both great rides but nemesis just beats montu.

 

[Anonymous]

i've never been on montu. i love nemesis(it was my first upsidedown coaster)