What's new

Hansa Park | Kärnan | Gerstlauer Hyper Coaster

andrus

Giga Poster
^Interesting! Is that "150% reference force" according to the new euro codes rules? Or it's just a generalization from your side?

I know for instance, from speaking with park officials, that Helix "oversupported" top hat was due to the new euro code rules.

Also: In terms of appearance I have to agree with Martyn; the Kärnan drop looks over supported! It might not be, but why on earth use such weak beams that you have to put a large ugly truss structure like that?? >< Look at B&M; it's perfectly viable to construct a ride with minimal supports (as long as you use larger/higher quality beams).
 

Martyn B

CF Legend
Thanks for the very informative post.

It still just seems too much to me when you compare it other coasters.
 

Pokemaniac

Mountain monkey
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
andrus said:
^Interesting! Is that "150% reference force" according to the new euro codes rules? Or it's just a generalization from your side?

To be fair, I encountered that example in the Eurocode for concrete structures, but I would think the same applies to steel structures as the logic is generally the same everywhere.

Basically, what you do when designing a structure, is:
1) Find reference force, which would be the strongest force to plausibly to be inflicted on the structure during normal operation/weather event.
2) Multiply reference force by a factor. I'm a little unsure when to apply the factor 1.2 or 1.5, both are used and I've seen up to 1.8 too, but it has something to do with the load configuration (basically, where the forces act on the structure). For instance on a house roof, you'd have to consider situations with both half the roof and the entire roof are covered with snow. The former is actually more dangerous, as there is nothing to compensate for the force on the snow-covered half (think of a scale weight). Yet since the house is weighed down heavier when snow covers the entire roof, you have to consider both situations, and pick the most dangerous situation when you proceed.
3) Find the yield strength of the materials in question. Multiply with various factors to account for the possibility that the materials might perform worse than specified. For concrete, you multiply with 0,85/1.5 (I'm not entirely sure why the two numbers aren't combined to a single factor, as our course didn't go that deeply into things). For steel rebar, the factor is 1/1.15. If I'm not entirely mistaken, the original material specifications are often also estimated to be rather low, for instance concrete strength is specified as the pressure strength of the concrete 28 days after pouring, yet concrete will continue to harden and achive up to 30 % more strength after that stage.
4) Choose the dimensions of the structural element necessary to withstand the re-calculated reference force, given the re-calculated material parameters. For concrete elements (again, concrete was the course I had) beam thickness is usually limited by architectural limits (ceiling-to-floor-above distance, usually), so what is crucial is the amount of rebar you put into the element.
5) Round up the answer from 4) to the closest practical industrial standard. If you get the necessary amount of rebar to be 2000 mm2 over the cross-section of the beam, for instance, you have no practical way to get that exact number using industry standard rebar diameters. Using 4x 25 mm rods, for instance, will land you at 1963 mm, which is too little according to your previous assumptions (without applying the correction factors, it would be plenty). Five rods, however, would bring you above the treshold, so that's what you use (for simplicity's sake, you try to avoid mixing rod diametres).

Now your structure will have a higher rebar content than is necessary in order to withstand forces way larger than it is planned to need to, under the worst possible load configuration, assuming that the materials are weaker than they are specified to be. You might call that "over-supported", yet it's actually the minimum of what the code requires. I'm sure Hixee could explain this better than me, since structural engineering is not my speciality and it's been a few months since last I had a structural engineering course.


As for the supports, also keep in mind that the concrete tower and the coaster are separate structures. The tower doesn't appear to carry any load from the coaster, which would make sense considering that the two are subject to way different dynamic loads (mainly wind for the tower, and train movements for the coaster), and interference between them would be a nightmare to design for.
This separation of the intertwined structures requires some wonky and unusual structure geometry, and the chosen solutions might be less than optimal from a structural standpoint, resulting in higher stresses than would be the case for a simpler, free-standing structure. This is solved by making the structure more robust, leading to more supports per track length than is usual for less complex coaster structures.
 

MouseAT

Hyper Poster
Martyn B said:
It seems a bit over-supported to me?
This looks like one of those cases where the track and support structure needs to be separated from the building that contains it. My guess is that the support structure for the track isn't attached to the concrete tower in any way (as the track and it's associated support structure probably moves too much when the ride is in operation), and the masses of support structure outside are the only way they could keep everything stable.

The alternatives would be either be to give the tower a bigger footprint so that all the stabilizing supports could be contained inside, or they'd have to ruin the aesthetic of the tower by building out external supports higher up the structure.

Edit: I skimmed Pokemaniac's post before I wrote this one, and somehow missed the fact that he mentioned this towards the end.
 

megasonic

Roller Poster
I don't like this new trend for queue lines here in Germany. After "Flug der Dämonen" last year at Heide Park, there will be no front row line for Kaernan in Hansa-Park as well. Seats are going to be assigned randomly. There will be a queue for single riders though. (Source)

Why won't they let decide us ourselves? If I want to ride in the first row, I have no problem with waiting additional minutes. :(
 
S

SimonSays99

Guest
I really support this move. No "I don't wanna ride with this person" resulting in a train going up to one third empty. And hoping they do it as efficiently like with Blue Fire at Europa-Park I am sure this will be good.

But the first coaster I experienced this was Olympia Looping on Oktoberfest - they have such a throughput they have to assign seats. They even have "You do not like your assigned seat? You have to leave without refund policy". Would like that on bigger parks also.
 

gavin

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
^ I disagree completely. People should be able to choose where they sit. The vast majority don't care and will fill up the train anyway. Trains going around a third empty when there are queues just doesn't happen.
 

Hyde

Matt SR
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
Cedar Fair has pushed towards assigned seats on some new installations. While it makes the station much more orderly; if the ride op is not on top of seat assignments and pumping riders into the station, not all seats will get filled. And guess what? It turns out seasonal teenage employees can lag in work. This totally undermines the system, and makes it detrimentally ineffective. Kings Island's Banshee was especially plagued with this system for 2014 - the ride ops simply could not handle assigning 32 seats-per-train every 30 seconds, and were causing lag for what otherwise is one of the greatest throughputs in the industry (that is, the B&M Invert).

I am a fan of having a ride op control the flow of riders into the station to reduce crowding, but letting riders choose their seats. Fair trade off that majority of Cedar Fair's coasters practice.
 

ThomVD

Giga Poster
As someone who really cares about where he sits, I dislike the new trend too. My solution is:

-Separate front/back queue
-Single rider line
-Seat assignment for the middle seats.

That way there aren't empty trains, and people still have some influence on where they want to sit.
 

TilenB

Strata Poster
^ Ein sitz, bitte! That's probably where my politeness would meet its end in German...

ThomVD said:
As someone who really cares about where he sits, I dislike the new trend too. My solution is:

-Separate front/back queue
-Single rider line
-Seat assignment for the middle seats.

That way there aren't empty trains, and people still have some influence on where they want to sit.

Completely agreed! Some stations (including a few in WH as well) do seem really disorganized due to there not being any seat assignment for the trains. Make a front row/back row queues separate and give the regular queue the Italian treatment (that means, allowing as many people in the station than there is seats left on the train)...
 

owentaylor121

Giga Poster
7cedb8ed733e2b2f2a93d729a4fadafe.jpg

That is a beast of a first drop!
 

peep

CF Legend
That is just full of win. I had a feeling it'd look great after watching the lift hill going in but yeah that'd pretty incredible.
 
Top