God

[Pokemaniac]

I believe that something started time, matter, space, whatever really. We just can't imagine or understand it, and it wouldn't be worth the effort to try. Perhaps said something formulated the laws of physics (after all, not too hard, as you can track down most physics to simple laws on a subatomic scale), then vanished due to its own existence would be impossible according to those laws. For all I know, it might have been an accident.

After that, well, nothing. I have my own Big Bang theory (what triggered it, not what happened), but from there, no deities or whatsoever. Just huge amounts of coincidences and events, which ultimately led us to the moment of now.

I bet there are people out there who would be offended by what is to come, but one thing has to be said first:
If you can't stand your faith being questioned, argued against, insulted, you don't believe strong enough. Or you believe in the wrong thing, check out what arguments your faith have to counter the non-believers. If it's anything along the lines of "they're idiots", well, you don't have much to stand on.

And then to the point. I think that organised religion is a trick, hoax, scam, power-tool, misunderstanding, money-machine, brainwash-tool, whatever you want to call it. Opium to the masses, if I remember the quote right. The ideologies may be fine and well, but in the end, it's just another way to make some people more powerful. I'm not going into details, I have plenty of arguments ready, but no need to throw them at people if they agree anyways.

An short, no big cheese. Just a lot of stories, made up to profit on behalf of the masses.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

So what makes religion different?

Maybe the fact there's really no proof it ISN'T true...?

Same can be said of Russell's teapot...

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense."

...Or anything else. Such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for example?

Argumentum ad Ignorantim is the argument fallacy you've started your post with. The Burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, obviously.

 

[Pokemaniac]

The entire argument is really no different than, say, giving your opinions. I don't agree with your point of view, but I certainly recognize and respect the fact you have it. It doesn't mean I go around telling you what a great job you're doing with your opinions, it just means I don't think you're an utter moron for having them - especially since I can't really prove anything with regards to opinion, just as you can't really prove anything with regards to religion (and neither can I - all the more reason why I shouldn't enforce my viewpoint as you shouldn't enforce yours. It's two hollow arguments).

If I had been able to come up with a statement like that, and remembered to post it when it felt right, I'd been more than sastified with my debate/discussion skills. Great job.

Thinking a lot about it, nothing can be proven 100%, it isn't limited to religion. You can always debate, bend definitions and stretch limits a tad more. A statement can always be reasonably counter-argued, how absurd it may seem. For all we know, we're all imagining the entire everythingness. The ability to fly may be common amongst rocks, they may just trick us to believe that they're the most motionless thing created since the goalkeeper on the Norwegian soccer team.

Ahh... deep thinking screws up the mind in ways I'm sure it isn't constructed to be screwn up.

 

[lol]

No I'm pretty sure the side that believe in magic look more ridiculous.

 

[furie]

UC, I think Gavin wasn't talking personal respect (though there may be some to a degree), but more the fact that if you don't believe in God, you have to pussy foot around and be careful not to upset those who do. As Pokemaniac says - if your faith is strong, then it can withstand somebody not believing in it.

Joey, it's so blatantly obvious you've just read "The God Delusion" :roll:

 

[nealbie]

Enzo Ferrari = God!

(well to me and other Ferrari fans at least )

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Joey, it's so blatantly obvious you've just read "The God Delusion" :roll:

Lol, yeah. Russle's teapot I got from there... But I've know most argument fallacies well enough to spot logic failure for years... Especially the worst failure of logic known to the argumenting world, prooving a negative, which is obviously impossible by general observation of the world we live in. Russle's teapot is the best example of argument from ignorance I've come seen. But I wonder why it even needs a bloody example, it's so outrageous. I had to look up what "prooving a negative" was actually called in old lecture notes from "critical thinking" class, though.

 

[Pierre]

If God does exist he can do me a favour and ****ing bail me out of this pickle I'm in right now!

 

[lol]

Probably not mate.

 

[Anonymous]

Its a no from me to...

 

[gavin]

As far as the "respect" issue goes, I think you're taking it a bit too far. You don't have to come up to me and congratulate me for my beliefs - I'd merely ask that you respect me enough to judge me based on who I am instead of the beliefs I have that really don't apply to you anyways. In other words, you don't even have to recognize the specifics of my beliefs - just respect me enough not think less of me for the sole fact that I believe them.

Sorry, didn't realise this topic had come back.

Furie has said it already. My "respect" comment wasn't meant to mean that I respect anyone less because of their religious views, because that's not the case at all. Sorry if that's how it came across.

I meant "respect" in that religion can often be untouchable, and undebatable. We can disagree with pretty much anything, but when it comes to religion, we're often expected to keep our own views quiet for fear of disrespecting the other person. That's obviously not true for everyone, but I've met more than a few people who have pulled the "respect my views" card and taken offence rather than come close to discussing it.

 

[Jake]

No.

It's up to people if they want to think otherwise, but I do somewhat pitty them...

That's all i'm going to say.

 

[CMonster]

Yes, I believe, I have all my life. Right now, I don't believe in God and Jesus because my parents made me, it is my own choice.

And for all the non-believers out there, here is a quote from Blaise Pascal:

"Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists."

That basically says that if you believe and it is false, you will lose nothing, but if it is true, you gain everything. It also says that if you don't believe and it is true, you will lose everything. Isn't it better to either gain all or lose nothing than to lose nothing or lose everything?

 

[furie]

I could suspend disbelief enough to acknowledge there may be a God.

I could NOT however use a religion to worship a God. I refuse to accept Hitler is sitting up there in Heaven because he believed.

So, generally, day to day - how does this help me get into heaven? How does having that faith (which I cannot express due to the fact that pretty much every religion is corrupted, or wrong, or they're all just an individual path to heaven (none of which fit me, so I can't worship in them anyway) help at all?

I may as well just save the effort of suspending disbelief. If I live a good life being kind, patient and happy - then surely God will forgive me not actively believing in him, but still by living by the rules he set down? I don't have to believe in good to be a morally positive person. Maybe God is working through me and I'm specially chosen by him to show the way of true goodness, kindness and helpfulness - showing you don't need a false ideology to do it?

I do know that if I show up at the pearly gates and God says "So, Furie. You came to church once every so often. You said you believed - but in your heart you didn't. You have lied to me directly, and therefore shall be punished. It would have been much better if you had stayed true to yourself and honest" - I'll be in the hot place for sure...

 

[Jools]

I'm agnostic, so I can't decide really, I think there may be something but am not sure, you have to love the agnostics, it's usually the paranoid ones :lol:

 

[Ian]

Come on, God, you've not produced a son for 2009 years now, you better hurry up and do so!

I'm sure everybody nowadays would believe if somebody came along, said they were the son of God and started doing magic tricks, such as coming back from the dead and feeding 10,000 people with one supermarket basket full of food.

Amazing.

 

[gavin]

Yes, I believe, I have all my life.

No, you haven't. When you were younger you wouldn't have had a "choice" at all, you just would have accepted what you were told. Believe in what you want, but don't kid yourself that, at your age, it's not based on influences from other people, whether that be parents, teachers or general social environment.

That basically says that if you believe and it is false, you will lose nothing, but if it is true, you gain everything. It also says that if you don't believe and it is true, you will lose everything. Isn't it better to either gain all or lose nothing than to lose nothing or lose everything?

Simply, no. The idea of believing "just in case" means that you don't really believe at all. Something bad might happen, so I should force myself to believe? That goes against the whole concept of belief itself.

 

[gavin]

^Fair enough, but him saying, "I don't believe just because my parents made me," strongly suggests that actually yes, that's exactly why. Why defend it in that way otherwise? Kind of like a 5-year-old pageant girl saying, "I want to be dressed like a 30-year-old hooker, mommy didn't make me."

Also, not to be (too) patronising, but at 14 how much of an informed choice can he be making anyway. I'm not saying that a 14 year old can't look into other options, but when you're still living at home and surrounded by people who believe, why would you "choose" otherwise?

 

[Ben]

Believing in God defies any sort of logic or reason.

I therefore don't do it.

And Santa, the Easter Bunny and Oompa Loompas also don't exist.

 

[marc]

Oompa Loompas do exist dont say things like that