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Efteling | Baron 1898 | B&M Dive Coaster

rollermonkey

Strata Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Darren B said:
Joey said:
That's not really what I said, Darren, and let's not think I would rather get a cloned kiddy cred over a high quality dark ride, here. I'm talking substantial coasters. Yeah its preference, but most people, enthusiasts or otherwise.

You'd turn down a cred for a dark ride?

0eccfcfb756f47911fdbfea74b741c70_zps5516f0f0.jpg

Damn straight.

I'll ride Haunted mansion every time I go, but skip Goofy's Barnstormer (or whatever it's called these days) even since the retheme.
 

Darren B

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

rollermonkey said:
Darren B said:
Joey said:
That's not really what I said, Darren, and let's not think I would rather get a cloned kiddy cred over a high quality dark ride, here. I'm talking substantial coasters. Yeah its preference, but most people, enthusiasts or otherwise.

You'd turn down a cred for a dark ride?

0eccfcfb756f47911fdbfea74b741c70_zps5516f0f0.jpg

Damn straight.

I'll ride Haunted mansion every time I go, but skip Goofy's Barnstormer (or whatever it's called these days) even since the retheme.

But, you've already got the cred so that's fine.

If I'm visiting a park for the second time and I've already got the coasters then it doesn't matter to me what I do first.
 

rollermonkey

Strata Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

At other parks I've not been to before, I have hit major dark rides before credits. Such as Spiderman at USJ before the indoor kiddy coaster. I'd have been pissed if I hit the kiddy coaster then found that Spiderman had gone down for the day and I missed it.

Seriously. There is more to life and amusement parks than credits.
 

Mysterious Sue

Strata Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Yeah but the point is, for many people at least, Efteling is a very revisitable park. It's dark rides have pulled me back several times over the last few years. An effort I don't make with most parks
 

Darren B

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

rollermonkey said:
At other parks I've not been to before, I have hit major dark rides before credits. Such as Spiderman at USJ before the indoor kiddy coaster. I'd have been pissed if I hit the kiddy coaster then found that Spiderman had gone down for the day and I missed it.

Seriously. There is more to life and amusement parks than credits.

Ok, so I joked a few posts above (poor humour, I know) and I honestly get that coasters aren't the main focus for some people (especially getting all the coasters) but to see YOU post that there's 'more to amusement parks than credits' made me chuckle ;)

We both know that isn't true, and we both know you dressed up as a Hasidic Jew to ride a Miner Mike. You also have more creds than anyone on CF; everybody knows where your priorities lay :D
 

ThomVD

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Ben said:
Well, yeah. That's the definition of overrated. You've got it pretty much nailed.

Well, then every park I've ever visited and every ride is overrated, because there's always others praising it more than I do.

A lot of people define overrated as "gets more praise than it deserves", but who decides how much praise something deserves?

It's just a useless word really.

Ben said:
Why is your username an STD by the way?

Because it happens to share the same abbreviation.
 

rollermonkey

Strata Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Darren B said:
rollermonkey said:
At other parks I've not been to before, I have hit major dark rides before credits. Such as Spiderman at USJ before the indoor kiddy coaster. I'd have been pissed if I hit the kiddy coaster then found that Spiderman had gone down for the day and I missed it.

Seriously. There is more to life and amusement parks than credits.

Ok, so I joked a few posts above (poor humour, I know) and I honestly get that coasters aren't the main focus for some people (especially getting all the coasters) but to see YOU post that there's 'more to amusement parks than credits' made me chuckle ;)

We both know that isn't true, and we both know you dressed up as a Hasidic Jew to ride a Miner Mike. You also have more creds than anyone on CF; everybody knows where your priorities lay :D

Stereotype much? A yarmulke does not make a person a Hasidic Jew.

...and you wouldn't know me from Adam, nor anything about me except what internet rumors there may be. Sorry if you think it funny or whatever that I don't place as much value on 'credits' as you think I do, but you know NOTHING.
 

Darren B

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

rollermonkey said:
Darren B said:
rollermonkey said:
At other parks I've not been to before, I have hit major dark rides before credits. Such as Spiderman at USJ before the indoor kiddy coaster. I'd have been pissed if I hit the kiddy coaster then found that Spiderman had gone down for the day and I missed it.

Seriously. There is more to life and amusement parks than credits.

Ok, so I joked a few posts above (poor humour, I know) and I honestly get that coasters aren't the main focus for some people (especially getting all the coasters) but to see YOU post that there's 'more to amusement parks than credits' made me chuckle ;)

We both know that isn't true, and we both know you dressed up as a Hasidic Jew to ride a Miner Mike. You also have more creds than anyone on CF; everybody knows where your priorities lay :D

Stereotype much? A yarmulke does not make a person a Hasidic Jew.

...and you wouldn't know me from Adam, nor anything about me except what internet rumors there may be. Sorry if you think it funny or whatever that I don't place as much value on 'credits' as you think I do, but you know NOTHING.

You may not place as much value on getting 'credits' in the present day, but let's face it, you certainly did in years gone by.

This is a light hearted bit of fun that you've taken way out of context. I know you slightly lack in the humour department but I didn't realise your were void of it completely. If you want to carry on this conversation with me, please feel free to PM me so that the topic can continue to discuss the DM (sorry for dragging it off topic folks).
 

furie

SBOPD
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Re: Efteling to get B&M Dive Coaster for 2015!

Roger013 said:
I will not make friends, when I say I partly agree with Joshua, saying the DM does not fit in the park.

You will as long as you're willing to explain the reasons and to back it up with good argument, a bit like...

Roger013 said:
One must not judge the Efteling about it's coasters. Efteling is about the fairytale, experiencing a dream. It;s about it's beauty, in summer and winter. Every detail. The Python is a very old coaster, it has it's own history. In that time Python was the biggest, fastest, greatest coaster of Europe. You don't just break that down. Efteling combines it's history with renewing things, and does a pretty good job. The part I disagree with Joshua is his complaint about the management. The new manager does not build anything Joshua, without permission of the board of commissionaires. They guard the identity of the park, no worries. The theming will be on-Efteling, it will NOT be an ordinary dive coaster. Cost coaster: 12 million, theming: 6 million. Imagine that. Story is about mineworkers. Colors of the coaster light brown/ dark green (traditional Efteling). They are going fast, as the weather was good the past weeks, expecting the ride fully operational may 2015. Opening is set for 1th of July. Judge the ride after it's done. It wont't be very thrilling as it is only a 37m drop.
Hartenhof is not canceled, but set for 2020 (70th anniversary). After Hoogmoed (name of the DM) there will be another nice project for 2018 and some small things.
For all the coaster critics: A themepark is more than only rollercoasters. I can hardly believe people cannot appreciate the beauty Efteling has to offers. As a familypark Efteling will never build Europe's highest, fastest, greatest thrill ride. If they wanted it, I'll tell you there would be. With the money spent on Vliegende Hollander they could have built Europe's finest, fastest, highest whatever thrill they wanted, which also attract other kind of people to the park. Efteling does a good job not make it's head crazy by the thrill rides Europark or Walibi come up with. They don't need these to be unique.

That kind of thing is excellent and really helps discussion - thank you :)
 

Martyn B

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

You can waste a lot of valuable time just getting the coasters in new parks, going from one side to the other etc, missing out on potential hidden gems in between. Yeah coasters are my fav, but the lesser rides can make or break a park for me. That's probably why I don't think much to Busch Gardens Tampa.
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Darren B said:
Joey said:
That's not really what I said, Darren, and let's not think I would rather get a cloned kiddy cred over a high quality dark ride, here. I'm talking substantial coasters. Yeah its preference, but most people, enthusiasts or otherwise.
You'd turn down a cred for a dark ride?

0eccfcfb756f47911fdbfea74b741c70_zps5516f0f0.jpg
Assuming the park and all it's attractions are new to me...

Major Dark Ride > Kiddy Cred
Medium Cred + > Everything

To elaborate for everyone else, coasters are more likely to be good than dark rides and 9/10 dark rides are only as good as 7-8/10 coasters, and 10/10 dark rides are as good as 9/10 coasters. That's my personal opinion. I'm not saying that I get a park's creds and run, I'm not saying that I don't like other attractions, I'm saying that assuming everything is new, the majority of the creds are priority when pressed for time.

And I'm inclined to believe this is the view held by the general public, who perceive a coaster as being a more worthwhile use of their time, presumably because it's a tangible experience they think they understand and think know what they're expecting. Coasters with better throughputs have longer lines than non-coasters in the same park for a reason.
 

ThomVD

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

^ In the Efteling, droomvlucht (almost) always has the longest line, so the last thing isn't always true. I guess it can be the same for Disneyland probably. I think if you go to the Efteling for creds or just for the coasters, you're really missing the point, and the park isn't going to be for you then. Just like if you would go to Cedar Point for dark rides.

I think each park should be approached differently, depending on what kind of experience the park offers.
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

What's Droomvlucht's throughput compared to the water coaster and Joris? I highly doubt it's more than Joris.

I think you might be right with regard to parks like Efteling and Disney, though. It does depend on the park and like you say no one's going to Efteling FOR coasters, except some of us nerds.
 

ThomVD

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Statistics say that Droomvlucht is 1800pph. Joris is 1750pph and Vliegende Hollander 1900pph. I don't know if it's actually like that when it comes down to it, but it can't be far off. Droomvlucht is definitely the most popular ride in the park, and the most famous along with het sprookjesbos (fairytale forest). Joris is actually one of the least well known rides there, at least for the GP. And none of the coasters is the signature ride of the park, nor will they ever be most likely. Not even the DM.
 

Ethan

Strata Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Joey said:
And I'm inclined to believe this is the view held by the general public, who perceive a coaster as being a more worthwhile use of their time, presumably because it's a tangible experience they think they understand and think know what they're expecting. Coasters with better throughputs have longer lines than non-coasters in the same park for a reason.

That's a bit of a generalisation though, seeing as a lot of families that visit theme parks are not interested in the coasters. People don't just go to Disney parks, or Efteling, just for coasters.
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

ThomVD said:
Statistics say that Droomvlucht is 1800pph. Joris is 1750pph and Vliegende Hollander 1900pph. I don't know if it's actually like that when it comes down to it, but it can't be far off. Droomvlucht is definitely the most popular ride in the park, and the most famous along with het sprookjesbos (fairytale forest). Joris is actually one of the least well known rides there, at least for the GP. And none of the coasters is the signature ride of the park, nor will they ever be most likely. Not even the DM.

Thanks for the numbers! Must admit, I'm surprised, but those are nice numbers... I don't know much about Efteling, but its certainly an enigma worth learning about. When did Droomvlucht open, early 90s? Is this not a cult phenomenon? Parents enjoying as a child now taking their kids on it? On a ride I worked with parents' nostalgic memories overode the shocking current state of the attraction. I'm sure Droomvlucht is well looked after, but my point being that popularity isn't always so simple, ya know.

Why do you think the park would have turned to adding several major coasters in recent years over dark rides? Whilst I realise a park cannot be over-populated with too-similar attractions, it does seem like they've turned to more physical thrills. Why was that major dark ride put on hold? When was the last major attraction they added that wasn't a coaster? The mad house?

Efteling and Disney are exceptions to the rule, not representative of the wider industry - that is true, but I still don't fully believe the same basic rules don't apply everywhere. Most attraction visitors are not knowledgeable enough about the place they are visiting for "people don't go to x for y" to hold true, in my opinion. People go because of reputation, advertising and word of mouth. Whether they come back is dependant on their experience had and often reputation will force them to lie to themselves about that, too. It means that less than fantastic attractions look worse then they are, and the best dominate no matter what they do to harm themselves.

When I worked at a park I made a point of talking to guests about other parks. I met 2 Dutch in my time there, and whilst they're not representative of the Netherlands as a whole, their thoughts on Efteling were very similar to how Brits talk about Disney. The general gist being the park is too crowded and for children, with no "good" rides. My dad has never been yo a Disney park, but in spite of me educating him otherwise perceives it as something rich parents do to entertain their kids and nothing more. Outside of families, I think people go to Efteling half of the time because its Efteling in the same way people will Disney parks because its Disney. I would also argue, on the flip side, that people may think they want coasters and thrill rides and a park to be empty, but that their experience of this reality is actually poor. When it was quiet at my park, guests would complain of there not being enough to do, whilst on a busy day they complain the park isn't open long enough. Situational, much like my experience at Efteling. But through the overrating on CF :p, my interest in the industry overall, especially from design perspective and this new coaster, I desperately want to get back and I desperately want to like the park more than I actually do.
 

ThomVD

Giga Poster
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

^ Droomvlucht did open at early 90s yes, but to this day it's still very popular by pretty much anyone in the Netherlands. Not just small kids and parents, but also tons of teenagers run towards the ride first thing in the morning. That's always something that interested me. When the day starts there are 4 gates where you can go to. One towards the main coasters (Joris, VH, Python), one towards Vogelrok/Carnaval Festival, one towards the Bob and Fata morgana area, and one towards Droomvlucht and Villa Volta. I'd say on an average day from what I've seen the split of people waiting is respectively 35%, 5%, 10%, 50% (I'm making the numbers up but that's just an estimate). Droomvlucht (almost) always has the longest line in the park, it is the most talked about ride, the most famous, and I've seen it winning polls of best ride in the park. Another thing, when Efteling asks about favorite rides on their facebook page, most people will mention Droomvlucht. The coasters are still very popular, especially Vliegende Hollander, but it doesn't get the same status as Droomvlucht, Fata Morgana and Sprookjesboos. Those 3 rides are just what makes the park so popular in the country. Ask a random dutch person to name a ride in the Efteling, and they'll most likely say one of those, and if they'd mention a coaster, they'd probably mention the Python, because THAT is a cult ride mostly loved because of nostalgia. I also think the ride still looks fine and it got a recent upgrade too.

About why they are adding coasters rather than dark rides, is because they want to make the park more internationally popular. They want to be one of the leading parks in the world. To achieve that, they feel that they need a better coaster selection too. Hartenhof (the new dark ride) was planned as the most expensive ride in the park, but nobody knows why it's delayed yet. It isn't officially cancelled though, so we'll have to wait to see. Efteling is really part of the Dutch culture, I'd say more than parks are in most countries. We all grow up with it, we learn about it in school, I think I've read somewhere that more than 90% of the dutch population has visited the park at least once in their lives, and more than half visit at least once a year. Efteling is/was the 3th most visited park in europe, and yet I've read that 90% of the visitors of the park are dutch. I'm guessing that is much higher than Disneyland Paris, Europa Park and other huge European parks. You can really see how much of a big thing the park is in this country.

The only things that the GP complain about a lot is the price (which is ridiculous I think, €32 is quite cheap for a park of its size), and how crowded it is, which is pretty much only in the summer, and even then, rides rarely surpass the 50-60 min in the very worst case on a saturday with nice weather. The capacity is great and the operations decent.

If theming, atmosphere, nature and dark rides aren't your thing, then I doubt you'll ever love the Efteling :) .
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Thing is, on paper Efteling is a me park. I love wooded parks that have an authentic sense of space and acquired history, I appreciate good atmosphere over everything else and themed scenery, whilst not essential, is appreciate, especially when done well. I think stylistically Efteling just doesn't speak to me?

I didn't care much for Europa, either, and that's a park lots of people think is outstanding. I don't understand it's very plain architecture. It's just dull. Relevant short article I wrote.

But Phantasialand, on the other hand, is one of my favourite parks, and I would go as far to call it the best themed environment I've experienced first hand. What makes it so great is that it is very immersive - tall walls, looming structures and everything is exciting and mysterious without feeling impossible and dated. Efteling, to me, is dated in style and whilst for the majority that seems to convey nostalgia and appreciation in old-fashioned story telling, to me it's just a bit dull and comes across as naive?

About why they are adding coasters rather than dark rides, is because they want to make the park more internationally popular.
This is interesting to me, given the universally known parks don't really focus on coasters? Perhaps with the exception of Busch Gardens? PortAventura?
 

nadroJ

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

^I'd disagree Joey. I know Disney is obviously the most visited but what ride do you hear people talking about most when they come back? Rock n Rollercoaster always. And look at the advertising for UIoA, before Potter you had Hulk front and centre, and it is still iconic as a coaster. And Port Aventura is similar I would argue. I think people really enjoy dark rides when they're IN Orlando or wherever but when you ask people their favourites most people would choose the coasters over any dark ride.
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Re: Efteling | unknown | B&M Dive Coaster

Oh I totally agree, Jordan. That's been my point all along in this thread. I said, what parks are KNOWN for their coaster lineup internationally by the public?

This is the thing, right... All the internationally solid parks are highly themed, yet individuals seem more interested in coasters.

People perceive coasters as being more worthwhile and substantial uses of their time and they stay in people's memory because they're physical - visceral, real, tangible. Understanding movement and thrill associated with that is intrinsic and natural, not a learned cultural thing like narrative and theatre required to appreciate dark rides. As Phil said on Twitter, "...coasters are "the main event". They appeal because the rider has to overcome more to ride it. Sense of achievement." They are also pop culture icons where dark rides just aren't, and as someone else mentioned on Twitter, (all in response to that article I linked to here) "i think theres are intrinsic reason why coasters and carousels have by far the largest enthusiast groups. yes, there's DAFE for dark rides - and Dis/Uni fans don't know or care about it, which I find telling." Whether individuals genuinely enjoyed, I dunno, Star Tours over Rock n Roller Coaster, is irrelevant. Their perception of worth will sway their judgement. Always.

Outside of those internationally recognised parks, new coasters (or IP branding) are pretty much the ONLY way parks can successfully bring in masses of people in marketing of a new ride. So for Efteling to choose to build some large coasters for marketing purpose makes sense, but to join the international stage? Not so much. That said, how does a park like Efteling join the international lineup of parks like Disney? I'm not sure it really can without brands the world understands. Efteling has built it's own unique brand and it's understood in the Netherlands... But elsewhere? Pretty sure PortAventura only sailed to greatness through Universal's backing and, once established, it's in a great location with a solid rep to keep people coming.

I don't think it makes any sense and I think the reality is that Disney and Universal do so well because of brand *alone*. I think Legoland is part of that category, too. That's not to say that any of those parks aren't good, but people visit them because of established brand.
 
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