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Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

This is a concept that comes up time and time again that I never understand.
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Really?

You're not familiar with the idea that people who are over exposed to a thing tend to have different tastes than the masses?

Like in film?

Look at the top rated 250 movies on IMDB compared to the top 50 highest grossing movies of all time.

Not that I don't think most people throwing out the "it's good for the GP" know what the hell they're talking about and I'm not convinced Valravn will be a well received coaster in the grander scheme of things, but there is a lot of merit in the idea that enthusiasts tend to favour different coasters to the general public.
 
^ Then what is a true "enthusiast roller coaster"? One that only enthusiasts enjoy that is not enjoyed by a regular park goer?
 
^I honestly think Goliath at SFGAm is a good example. A lot of people here who rode it has it in their top 10 or top 5. However, everyone in the GP I know who rode it thinks it's too short, thus making Raging Bull their favorite.
 
What gets me is the aim of the point of 'not an enthusiast coaster' - as though parks build coasters to please enthusiasts, which is just not the case whatsoever. It's been said time and time again on these forums and Hyde is correct with what he's saying.

Parks do NOT build coasters for enthusiasts, they're such a minute sector of the market for a theme park that they really don't scratch the surface. By saying 'not an enthusiast coaster', you're putting yourself in a bracket above the general public by stating that you're different from them, which is **** stupid to be honest with you.
 
Lofty said:
What gets me is the aim of the point of 'not an enthusiast coaster' - as though parks build coasters to please enthusiasts, which is just not the case whatsoever.
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Exactly! As GuyWithAStick rightfully pointed out - Goliath is by all enthusiast accounts the best roller coaster at SFGAm. Raging Bull however often takes top billing as most popular at the park - I have multiple Chicago friends who will rave ad nauseum about it as their favorite steel coaster. Goliath was not built for enthusiasts however; it just turned out to be a really good roller coaster.

See, this I can grasp. In Cedar Point terms, I'd venture Maverick as the "enthusiast" roller coaster, which can be less popular in the park than MF, TTD, or Raptor. Maverick is simply a good Intamin, while others carry larger wow factors that remain popular with the general masses.
 
Okay - isn't Valravn the exact same layout as the other dive machines? I'm not too familiar with Cedar Point's new coaster, but I just got back from Busch Gardens and rode Griffon.

If it's the same thing, just bigger, what's the point?
 
^It's bigger, with a different layout, halfway across the country, in a totally unrelated park.

That's the point.

Because by that argument, what was the point in Griffon?
 
By that logic why build any coaster, because surely one exists elsewhere and they are all the same.

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Ben said:
^It's bigger, with a different layout, halfway across the country, in a totally unrelated park.

That's the point.

Because by that argument, what was the point in Griffon?
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Rode Griffon, was meh - nothing special. Why would I waste my gas, time, and vacation pay on a slightly larger Griffon?

Why? Why? Why?
 
There aren't any Dive Machines in Cedar Point's catchment area... Both Busch Gardens parks are very far away to the point where they're are irrelevant to Cedar Point. It's like saying what's the point of having a Universal Studios in Hollywood and Orlando... The park didn't build Valravn to entice a couple of enthusiasts who live like 350 miles away and that don't like Dive Machines...
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I do agree that I wish it was more different, but I can say that about most B&Ms.
 
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Hyde said:
Lofty said:
What gets me is the aim of the point of 'not an enthusiast coaster' - as though parks build coasters to please enthusiasts, which is just not the case whatsoever.
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Exactly! As GuyWithAStick rightfully pointed out - Goliath is by all enthusiast accounts the best roller coaster at SFGAm. Raging Bull however often takes top billing as most popular at the park - I have multiple Chicago friends who will rave ad nauseum about it as their favorite steel coaster. Goliath was not built for enthusiasts however; it just turned out to be a really good roller coaster.

See, this I can grasp. In Cedar Point terms, I'd venture Maverick as the "enthusiast" roller coaster, which can be less popular in the park than MF, TTD, or Raptor. Maverick is simply a good Intamin, while others carry larger wow factors that remain popular with the general masses.
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See, I think Lofty is pertaining to argument fallacy here and agree with Hyde, which is why I think it's so strange that you start with "exactly!"

I think saying "it's not an enthusiast coaster" doesn't imply that such things are designed with that intent. Roller coasters with certain sequencing and ride experience, such as for example the intamin hypers and out and back wooden coasters, are generally preferred by enthusiasts. But unless they have height to brag about, they're generally overlooked by the masses in favour of inversions or gimmicks. Generally. Other factors clearly apply. I believe that coasters can be both, but since designing a good sequence is bloody hard, it's easier and more reliable to just have some epic selling point. This is why Merlin are obsessed with world's firsts and why Cedar Point do nothing but build big.

And that's my issue with Valravn and all the dive machines. I know I've been through this before so feel free to skip reading this, but they really don't do anything... I know that's such a common empty thing to say, but they don't. On the subject of there being no others local to Cedar Point, that argument falls apart when you realise that the other two are at national tourist parks. On the subject of Griffon, yes it is completely pointless. It's a massive failure of a ride in my opinion. Massive, completely forceless, never has a line, it looks pathetic, poorly designed area, repetitive. It's poo. I suspect Valravn will be better than Griffon, but what annoys me is that I know it will still feel the same as the rest of them. Floaty, lame and contradictive to its appearance.

That's why Fury was such a big deal to me. It wasn't just another b&m, it was dramatic, forceful... Alive?

Another giant but ultimately mediocre ride for Cedar Point pisses me off because they have the money and space to do amazing things and they don't. Maverick is one of the best rides in the world and it is so violently anti-Cedar Point, that's why it's so good.

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Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Joey, I'm not pertaining to argument fallacy whatsoever. I was giving my opinion so please don't try to condescend by stating that my view is lower than yours by referring to it as 'fallacy'.
 
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Wasn't criticising your opinion at all, just the part about... 'the term "enthusiast coaster" = parks design such things, which they don't' is a fallacy. The existence of the term *may* refer to a by product, such as in this case, rather than designed intent. Nothing to do with your opinion and not condescending.

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Lofty is wrong tbf.

His statement that parks do not build coasters for enthusiasts is wrong - Helix, Legend, anything RMC etc are examples where this has happened.

Not solely for enthusiasts, but to say no-one keeps them in mind, even aiming exactly for what they'd want, when designing certain coasters is untrue.

So if you wanted to define an 'Enthusiast Coaster' as one designed with the intent of incorporating the elements enthusiasts enjoy and look for and building a coaster with the intent that is well thought of by this group of people, then that would be a thing. The sole intent is never enthusiasts and no-one else, but there has been cases parks have aimed for them and known everyone else will follow.

Valravn isn't one of those coasters though. Maverick, kind of is? That's as close as CP have gotten?
 
The term "Enthusiast Coaster" was first presented in this conversation as a definite factor amusement parks bear in mind when designing a roller coaster.

While many would agree this is not the case - amusement parks do not design a roller coaster for a small subset of park goers; there is a general consensus that amusement parks look for good roller coaster designs. As Ben mentioned above, a fair definition of an Enthusiast Coaster would be "designed with the intent of incorporating the elements enthusiasts enjoy and look for and building a coaster with the intent that is well thought of by this group of people." That is, becoming an Enthusiast Coaster is a correlation, not a causation - some roller coasters are designed with good layouts, which then in turn are regarded as "Enthusiast Coasters" due to good design and ride experience, especially those that were not designed with record-breaking in mind.

And as Joey mentioned a page before, other roller coasters are designed in part with a "gimmick": Tallest, fastest, longest, most inversions.

It is important to point out that this whole notion is not black and white. Many would agree Boulder Dash to be amongst the chief of top enthusiast wooden coaster - it's a tremendous ride. However, when it opened, it was a gimmick! "First wooden mountain coaster" "tallest, fastest, longest wooden coaster on the east coast" "Voted #1 wooden coaster in the world". It is one of the best wooden coasters in the world, but one that also originally featured a gimmick as a central design in its opening.
 
Hyde, can you quote whoever used "enthusiast coaster" as a definitive term for designed intent? Because I really cannot believe or imagine how anyone would say that. I still think someone read too much into a whimsical comment.

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^ Sure thing.
Jarrett said:
I enjoy [Valravn] a small amount, but it isn't really an enthusiast coaster. It's targeted at people who are just visiting the destination, people who are more Cedar Point enthusiasts than full blown coaster enthusiasts (like the locals I met at CoasterMania that had never been to KI and had no knowledge of The Smiler crash but knew everything about the park), or locals who want a bit of incentive to renew their pass. I get off and think "K, not bad," the target demographic gets off and has to go change the pants they just creamed...preferably in the parking lot in full view of the coaster. /insidejoke
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Cedar Point released a nice night POV for Valravn:

[facebookpost]https://www.facebook.com/cedarpoint/videos/10153681508956463/[/facebookpost]
 
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