Cedar Point 2020/2021

[tomahawk]

Can you imagine if SFMM announced West Coast Racers as a distraction, and then just built a T-Rex?! I think @tomahawk might die...

I would get a "Have a Six Flags Day" tattoo with Mr. Six holding 6 different flags spelling it out.

Adding some content instead of ****posting. I expect the Fury shirts to head over to Millenium island right when the park reopens and for a megafooter to appear, ala Tatsu egg turn on the mountain size footer. Then speculation will run rampant.

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[Hyde]

Adding some content instead of :emoji_pooposting. I expect the Fury shirts to head over to Millenium island right when the park reopens and for a megafooter to appear, ala Tatsu egg turn on the mountain size footer. Then speculation will run rampant.

Ahhhh, brings back found memories of Skyhawk’s opening, and the local news paper writing a front page article on Cedar Point’s newly constructed footers for a “zen garden” in the former Swan Boat pond. (Subsequently became Maverick turn and s-vend after the launch)

 

[SilverArrow]

I saw a fan debate video where they mentioned that the park lacks a world class woodie and that a GCI makes sense to solidify their reputation as the roller coaster capital.

Seems like good logic but I don't know whether it's fancy enough. Doubt they'd go for the inverting GCI as it's similar looking to Steve (although might ride completely different) but that would be cool.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I saw a fan debate video where they mentioned that the park lacks a world class woodie and that a GCI makes sense to solidify their reputation as the roller coaster capital.

Seems like good logic but I don't know whether it's fancy enough. Doubt they'd go for the inverting GCI as it's similar looking to Steve (although might ride completely different) but that would be cool.

I think the park management are weighing their options very carefully here, now that there is so little room left to expand without tearing down something else. It's not only about optimal use of the land right now, but also about leaving options open for future development. A new flagship coaster - on the size of the B&Ms built or converted in the past years - would either require quite a lot of the remaining idle land (and tying it up for decades), or require something else to be sacrificed. No matter what this new coaster would be, and what its purchase sum would be, it would be very expensive in terms of land and limits to future growth (presumably, a non-flagship coaster like a ZacSpin or something could be crammed in somewhere at a lower cost, but that wouldn't be relevant to this discussion).

That means that a new attraction, particularly a flagship attraction, really better be worth that cost. If I were the park director, I wouldn't want to give up land (or one of the existing coasters) without being certain it would give a solid return on its investment and justify the spending in the coming decades. It needs to be something the guests can't experience in the park already, or they'd go "I went there last year and rode ____, this is basically the same, I'll pass this year." I'd say they need their next coaster to either replace something old with something similar-but-better (this was how Rougarou and Steel Vengeance came to be), or it needs to do something completely new and unprecedented for the park.

A GCI or other woodie would hit both these marks, I'm afraid. Very expensive in terms of required land, and its role is already covered by Blue Streak, Gemini and Steel Vengeance to some extent. Maybe it would be on the table to replace one of the former coasters, should they ever disappear, but currently I don't see it as a worthwhile addition to the park's lineup, given what it would cost and what it would offer. If they make it big and focus on its thrilling aspects, it would compete with SteVe for attention, and that's a battle it would be doomed to lose. Make it too small, and it won't be much of a flagship attraction, maybe seen as something comparable to Gemini.

That also begs the question - what would justify that cost, then? That's the topic of this topic, after all. And after thinking it through, I'd say... nothing right at the moment. A Flyer seems like the obvious choice at first, but Raptor and Gatekeeper sort-of tick that box already. Would people come back in droves for another B&M where your feet dangle with no track below? A Spinner, then? Possibly, but I don't see it drumming up enough buzz to be seen as anything but a filler ride. Even a T-Rex could be problematic, since the problem of space scales with the size of the ride. A 500-foot drop would have the train traveling at up to 200 km/h at the bottom, and any maneuver at that speed would require turns wider than football fields, or hills/turnarounds that alone would cost as much as the lift hill of a giga coaster. Suddenly, you're not looking at having to demolish one big coaster to fit it in, but two. Also, beyond a certain size, a coaster starts to repel all but the most hardcore thrill seekers, I think it would be impractical to build anything taller than TTD for that reason. I wouldn't say no to something as big as Millennium Force with loops, however, but the park might not have the room for it.

So I think Cedar Point could be waiting at the moment. Either waiting for one of their old flagships to age and warrant replacement, or waiting for new coaster technology to emerge/mature so it could create a conceptually unique ride on a flagship scale. Current off-the-shelf rides are either covered by the existing lineup, or are too small-scale to be worth the space investment. But in the future, someone might invent or perfect a coaster that would match Cedar Point perfectly, and it'd be a bit of a bummer to have expended all idle room in the park when it happens. I think they are eyeing F.L.Y. to see if Vekoma can bring something new to the concept of flying coasters, and Mack might be interesting to follow too with how the Time Traveler launched spinner concept turns out. Maybe S&S will even resurrect their old 4D coasters at some time as well, that certainly would be unique enough for Cedar Point (well, Gatekeeper...). But right now, I can't really think of anything to point at and say "Cedar Point should build that!" Maybe it would be better to allow some time to pass, rest on the laurels a little, and see what options are available in a few years?

 

[roomraider]

Obviously this is pie in the sky thinking but you make good points about a GCI there @Pokemaniac however with both GG and GCI apparently working on launched versions of rides that would perhaps negate a few of the "its similar to" points and give them the usual Worlds first, fastest, tallest type of thing they usually go for at CP.

The question of space is a tough one though. Im surprised more US parks arent willing to layer rides like BPB and Grona do. Theres plenty of space to fill in and around other rides but parks like CP seem to like to keep their coasters to their own little plot of land.

 

[Hixee]

The question of space is a tough one though. Im surprised more US parks arent willing to layer rides like BPB and Grona do. Theres plenty of space to fill in and around other rides but parks like CP seem to like to keep their coasters to their own little plot of land.

Just had a look on Google Maps (so let's call it an exhaustive site survey ), and I could definitely get a good woodie in/around Millennium Force on Millennium Island (assuming that's what the turnaround area is called). Could be very reminiscent of Wodan/Blue Fire's interactions, and would be great. Looks to be loads of space too.

I like that idea...

 

[Antinos]

Aside from Millennium Force, there isn't anything else on the island so there IS room for development there. For as long as I've been an enthusiast, people have stated that the park is running out of space and ask when they're going to expand into the parking lot, but when it comes to packaging new rides into the park, Cedar Point excels at it. For years, the park has moved around numerous rides to carve out new spaces and footprints and certainly they won't stop. The Point moved Giant Wheel to build Millennium Force, they moved three rides to build Top Thrill Dragster, they removed rides at the end of their operating life for Valravn and Gatekeeper, to name a few examples. Tiki Twirl, impressively, has been moved around the park almost a dozen times in its operating life. Surely, Cedar Point will continue to do so as long as they're building major new rides.

 

[Hyde]

Just had a look on Google Maps (so let's call it an exhaustive site survey ), and I could definitely get a good woodie in/around Millennium Force on Millennium Island (assuming that's what the turnaround area is called). Could be very reminiscent of Wodan/Blue Fire's interactions, and would be great. Looks to be loads of space too.

The park is sadly relaunching Millennium Island as an "Adventure" Experience (Previously was Dinosaurs Alive! exhibit, being rebranded as Adventure Island). Overall, this has been a chronically underutilized space. While the old Paddlewheel Excursion boat ride circled the island, there was always opportunity to bridge over; which didn't happen until 2010 with the (late) Shoot the Rapids. Plenty of space for any ride over there, but the park continues to opt for low cost attractions.

With regards to stacking rides, Rob Decker (Cedar Fair VP of Design) really emphasizes placemaking with attractions, and building rides on top of one another. He was sharing detail to that regard as far back as 2013 when we interviewed him on Gatekeeper Opening Day. Cedar Fair is not afraid to venture into parking spaces however (Leviathan, Fury 325, Dominator all good examples) - I could see a parking lot play as potential for giving a large roller coaster footprint room to roam outside the bounds of the park. This was a chief innovation of Avalanche Run (Disaster Transport), Magnum XL-200, and even portions of Gatekeeper have already shown good cause for building outside the park bounds. No reason why the park wouldn't build out if needed.

As much as I'd love that classic throw back GCI twister or record breaking B&M Flyer, I still just throw up my arms to what the next play is - neither seem to have that wow factor the park could build up to. ...especially since Kings Island is building a Giga in 2020.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Let's say Kings Island is building a Giga in 2020... do the financials of Cedar Fair allow for a huge coaster at both CP and Kings Island? I'm just wondering if we are getting on the 150th anniversary hype train when CP may have plans for a bigger coaster in a few years instead of 2020 for.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Another point I didn't touch upon is the question of how many huge rides Cedar Point will want to operate in the long run. I presume they're paying a fairly large sum in upkeep, staffing and maintenance every year, keeping their large stock of coasters running. The marginal cost of adding a new flagship coaster is fairly constant too (each new coaster of a given size would add the same numbers to the operations budget), but the effect of adding each new ride would presumably not be as linear. Going from 3 flagship coasters to 4 would have a huge effect on guest numbers, but going from 11 to 12? Not so much, I think. They might as well take out a coaster for each they add, keeping the total number constant and the operations budget likewise.

It's also likely that the public would react more negatively to a reduction of the coaster lineup than they would react positively to an addition. Effectively, going from 11 to 12 flagship coasters would pull in, say, 150k more guests per year, but going from 11 to 10 would reduce the number by 200k. So once the number of flagship coasters is raised to 11, it better stay there, no going back or their reputation will take a hit. I believe this would make management more hesitant to increase the number of big coasters too, on danger of raising the bar for expectations to unsustainable levels. Moreover, as each coaster would have approximately the same lifespan, the rate of replacement would go up as the number of rides do. Say a coaster lasts for 30 years on average, and a park operates a steady number of 10 flagship coasters. That means they're committed to replacing one of them with a new flagship every three years on average. Would they want to increase that to one every 2.5 years? That's a lot of high costs coming down the line.

So instead of increasing the number of flagship coasters, they might want to wait for one to fall into obsolescence and replace it. They've already done that to Mantis and Mean Streak in recent memory, maaaaybe you'll count Disaster Transport as a flagship too (torn down for Gatekeeper). As such, Valravn is the only one of their recent huge additions (past ten years) that didn't directly replace an old large-scale coaster. The number of flagship coasters has really only gone up by one in the last decade, would they want to raise that bar again now? To be fair, the anniversary would be a legit occasion to do so. But it could also be preceeded by the quiet retirement of a ride that has served its purpose and lost its luster.

(Another implication of this - it works on a chain level as well as a park level. I presume Cedar Fair wouldn't want too many flagship coasters to pay for and eventually replace across the entire chain, not only at Cedar Point)

Also, I guess that the reason why they don't stack coasters or let them interveawe, is that it can put pretty strict restrictions on the next coaster to fill that plot, when one of them is eventually removed. If you have designed, say, a steel coaster having an immelman through a helix of a woodie, you'll have to find another way to navigate around that immelmann when the woodie is replaced, since it pokes into the same lot. Might as well keep both coasters on their separate pieces of land, which you will then have full creative control over when the ride is retired.

 

[b&mfanboy123]

Think about it like this, if we were going to see a T-Rex (presumably the big size) we would have seen land development underway, preparations beginning, because a 300 footer might need a while to erect. Which is why I am skeptical we will be seeing a 300ft+ T-Rex, but we might see a 200 footer or smaller.

 

[tomahawk]

Think about it like this, if we were going to see a T-Rex (presumably the big size) we would have seen land development underway, preparations beginning, because a 300 footer might need a while to erect. Which is why I am skeptical we will be seeing a 300ft+ T-Rex, but we might see a 200 footer or smaller.

Nobody can see what is happening at the park right now, besides webcams. All they have to do is point them the other direction. We can't for sure say what they are, or are not, currently doing.

Here's a thought I just had, so I'm kinda spitballing for a second.

Kings Island is (presumably) getting a large B&M. Upwards of $25 million

CGA had that hyper for 2020...was that cancelled? If not, another $20ish million

Kings Dominion is apparently supposed to get something for 2020. Would want to compete with Soaring with Dragons like BGW addition. $20-30m?

So let's assume they stick with the recent trend of 4 parks get new coasters, that would mean the final addition of 2020 would go to Cedar Point, or a park that DESPERATELY needs a new coaster. So Cedar Point will get it.

2019 is a light year with only 2 major additions, so theoretically they could add an additional coaster, or the additional funds go to a larger addition. We still don't have a dollar amount for raptors, but Schilke did mention they were working on a mid tier between raptor and rex, but I'm not expecting this to be that. If anything, I'd expect a 2 per row raptor, or a sexy trexy.

Hyde just made me think about this. We all know I want a Sexy Trexy, so let's ignore that for a second. I think people are over exaggerating the amount of space needed. Yes, you have to accommodate for speed/forces, but RMC have proven they can fit a lot in tight areas (giggity). Now, why not let this bitch run into the parking lot? What would be more intimidating than that skyline? Driving alongside a stupid big drop and a 250 foot dive loop ala Wonder Woman. Who needs a massive turnaround when you can give stupid ejector on the biggest inversion on the planet.

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[Antinos]

Not sure if this will ground everybody or not, but based on their 3rd quarter earnings report, Cedar Fair earned $664 million in the 3rd quarter and is expecting to earn $1.3 billion for 2018. Inb4 someone tries to come at me like a spider monkey with regard to business things...yes, there are overhead costs. Yes, they have to pay wages and utility costs and the like across all of their properties. Yes, they have to safeguard various allocations to ensure their business remains healthy. The point is that just yearly net revenue is two orders of magnitude greater than the cost of your typical addition - your flagship coaster will realistically cost ~2-3% of the expected 2018 net revenue. I'm not implying that flagship investments are pocket change to a giant company like Cedar Fair nor am I saying that a coaster the sizes of Fury or Steel Vengeance are cheap, but the parks aren't going to break the bank even when you're adding up multiple new attraction investments. Budgeting ~10% of yearly net revenue for future attractions sounds reasonable...at least it sounds reasonable without actually seeing the nitty gritty of Cedar Fair's financials.

 

[Hyde]

^ What's more, Cedar Point is generally in the black by late June for operational costs - a vast majority of the season is operating at profit. This has been a special case in recent years, as in-park spending has been up for Cedar Fair as a whole, which is where maximum profits are achieved. (Buying a park ticket generates less percentage profit than buying a soda)

I have often understood park investments to flow from each individual park's budget as well, while Cedar Fair as a whole directs general planning of new attractions and additions. Which is to say, Kings Island and Cedar Point respectively can afford large new roller coasters - the bigger concern would be if two big new roller coasters 4 hours apart would compete for attendance and media draw. (Overall probably not, as Kings Island and Cedar Point markets are vastly different in presence and demographic)

For hypothetical purposes, assume Cedar Fair/Cedar Point can take the hit for any new investment. Consider MF being built in 2000 at $25M - that is a $36.5M roller coaster when you adjust for inflation. (Let alone it was followed 2 and 3 years by Wicked Twister and TTD, another $34M in investment).

 

[Hyde]

Sandusky Register reporting today of Cedar Point removing the Cedars employee dorms across the street from Valravn: http://www.sanduskyregister.com/sto...uHQeQZFYcUbAHi8R3MP016ciDZtEy53JADeyMm0jfyv-k

This move has been rumored for years, all the way back to when Cedar Point decided to retire Wildcat in 2011 (also nearby). While employee housing will move to new addition of off-site housing, it also opens up more valuable real estate.

For history buffs, it's a sad (but expected moment) - the Cedars was actually Cedar Point's first hotel, dating back to 1901 when it opened as the White House.

It was one of the very first things George Boeckling ever built on the peninsula, and was one of the first step in converting Cedar Point from a picnic grove to amusement park and vacation destination. The structure never really changed over it's 110 year lifespan outside of expansions made in the 1910s - air conditioning was never installed, and accommodations remained spartan, even after being converted to employee dorms. What remained as the "Cedars" dorms was a few wings of the hotel - much of it was subsequently removed in the 20s and 30s due to guests staying at the newer, more modern Hotel Breakers on the opposite side of the peninsula. Removing portions of the hotel allowed for new midway expanse, subsequently where Millennium Force, the Millennium Midway, and Valravn now stand.

To be clear, the place was a hell hole for employees to live during the summer. Just a very historic hell hole.

 

[SilverArrow]

From amusement today on Facebook

"A FULL CENTURY AND A HALF OF FUN is what Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH, will be celebrating come 2020. And for the big anniversary, the park has been seeking public input on how to mark the milestone. "If you’re expecting one giant 800-foot roller coaster, probably not gonna happen," says rep Tony Clark. "But, if you’re expecting multiple cool things, that’s probably more along the lines of what we’re thinking." For some hints, read on below..."
The link they then share: is:https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/c...o-far/95-145df88a-e120-4f2e-b337-484d5a927c3e
(I am unable to open it so no idea what it says)

 

[Hyde]

Alright, so you were talking about that retro-style GCI?

 

[GuyWithAStick]

SANDUSKY, Ohio — It’s the second oldest amusement park in North America, and in 2020 Cedar Point will celebrate its milestone 150th anniversary.

The planning is already underway, and park officials are asking fans to help pick the perfect retro item to resurrect.

“We’re in a 150th anniversary meeting and want your opinion,” Cedar Point’s Tony Clark tweetedThursday afternoon. “If we could bring a retro CP food item you remember from years ago, what would you want to see? GO!”


Tony Clark

@TonyClarkCP

Ok guys. Need your help. We’re in a 150th Anniversary meeting and want your opinion.

If we could bring back a retro CP food item you remember from years ago, what would you want to see? GO!

3:16 PM - Jan 10, 2019

Dozens of people weighed in, with many fondly pleading to see the return of the unforgettable fruit-shaped drink sippers. Like this one.

But what else is coming for the big 150th anniversary? Clark offered a few more teases when he spoke with WKYC about the 2020 season last September.

“We are, of course, planning some big things. The difficult part for us, is what is that gonna be? Is it gonna be a huge attraction? Or is it gonna be multiple experiences? Or is it gonna be retro everything? You can probably plan on there being lots of retro stuff hearkening back to our early history. Some of it from our history that most of us today remember, so things from maybe the ‘70s on. Maybe some new attractions, too. We are planning for that now.”

But wait... There's more!

“If you’re expecting one giant 800-foot roller coaster, probably not gonna happen. But, if you’re expecting multiple cool things, that’s probably more along the lines of what we’re thinking. It’s such a big celebration. You can’t just celebrate with a roller coaster. It’s got to be multiple things, and things for everybody in the family. That’s really what we’re focused on.”

Cedar Point opens for its 2019 season on Saturday, May 11.

Something tells me they're going to be asking for public input on more than just some retro food.

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[Hyde]

So with all of this development, A few thoughts on how Cedar point could proceed:

1. Cedar Point needs to bear in mind the massive impact Dick Kinzie had on the park during his tenure (1986-2008). Many, many people who would be caring about the 150th anniversary are those who grew up in an era of Magnum XL-200, Massive B&M’s, Intamin, etc. So when the park discusses “retro” throwbacks to the park’s past, going back into just the 90s and late 1980s would be a sufficient journey for folks to relive their childhood. The fact of the matter is much of the park pre-1980s has been removed, modified, or massively renovated to accommodate larger attractions (go back to our discussion on real estate being in rare supply). Cedar Point may be one of the oldest parks in North America, but it’s post-modern existence as we know it has only existed for 30 years tops.

2. There is definitely a certain romance at the thought of Cedar point going all the way back to its origins when it thinks and discusses “retro“ attractions, events, and activities for the anniversary. Personally, I could see a recreation of the original boardwalk with it’s larger toboggan and other aquatic attractions being a really cool throwback to Cedar point origins as a waterfront vacation destinations. All of these thoughts however do you run the risk of appearing very dated and disconnected to Cedar point as we know it today ( going back to point 1, Cedar point is in an age that has only lasted a few decades). So while the thought of going back to the 1960s 70s and way further back to early 20th century would be a really cool accomplishment for the park, I have difficulty thinking about how the park could have 150th anniversary celebrations and features that would actually be a guest to draw.

3. If we were to interpret Tonys quotes through an attraction lense, that is; a series of smaller attractions and features; I could see a lot of options on the table. We already know that Cedar point loves to do you throw back rides that harken the spirit of the previous informer attraction. What about doing a wild mouse roller coaster theme to the old Scamper roller coaster? Or (while we would all love to see a Cyclone GCI recreation...), rebuilding of some of the parks early, smaller scale wooden coasters such as High Frolics or Scenic Railway? While Cedar point could play the same card many others play, celebrating heritage and history, wouldn’t it be great if they actually went forth with re-creating old attractions and bringing them anew to the park offerings? All this pontification though would have needed to have happened years ago to give proper runway for developing attractions.

Oh and P.S. Kings Island is totally getting a Giga if Cedar Point doesn’t go big for 2020.

 

[Grobble]

Let's say Kings Island is building a Giga in 2020... do the financials of Cedar Fair allow for a huge coaster at both CP and Kings Island? I'm just wondering if we are getting on the 150th anniversary hype train when CP may have plans for a bigger coaster in a few years instead of 2020 for.

LOL...Cedar Fair doesn't have money to build multiple major coasters in a year. Please educate yourself on CF, their financials, Capex, etc..before commenting,