Alton Towers | Nemesis Reborn | B&M Retrack | 2024
- Thread starter Matt N
- Start date
Nicky Borrill
Strata Poster
this just means they’re checking whether the maintenance is a permitted development or needs a full separate planning application…
Don’t worry
either way it doesn’t cause too much of an issue.Edited to add: Also the title of this thread is misleading, as strictly speaking this isn’t a ‘planning application’ yet. Hence the 'proposal' under type... When it is an application the type will read something like 'full planning application.'
Edited again to add: I missed @Indy 's post first scan through, basically nailed it before me...
Last edited:
That's to avoid water damage to building materials such as wood or insulation, though. It wouldn't be needed for a coaster, which doesn't contain any materials that must remain dry at all times. While the tent also provides shelter for the workers, that's mostly a side effect – it would be too expensive to put a tent up just for the sake of comfort.
I think the absolutely worst thing that could happen to Nemesis is that the stability of the pit could start to fail. That would be hard if not impossible to fix without removing most of the coaster temporarily. It is also an unlikely scenario, however, but the thought gave me the idea that this work could involve some digging. That would presumably require a permit.
Matt N
CF Legend
Fair point @Nicky Borrill; I’ve edited the thread title slightly.
That's not typically how it works. When submitting an application you submit sufficient documentation to get the application registered and fully validated.
JoshC.
Strata Poster
In terms of why this application might be needed, it could be because of the park's planning application and what is allowed.
Large parts of Alton Towers are covered by a General Development Order (GDO). In short, this means that the park do not need to apply for planning permission to build rides in these areas, so long as they fit with certain, pre-agreed conditions. The park may still submit full plans out of courtesy, or if a part of the application doesn't fit within the existing conditions.
More details can be found thanks to Towers Street: https://towersstreet.com/features/articles/alton-towers-planning-restrictions/#partfour
Now, Nemesis' location falls within these GDO area. So they would not need planning permission to build something there. But let's have a look at the exact wording of the GDO, from that wonderful TS article:
Say the park want to do a full track replacement, like-for-like. What is the definition of "replaced" in the GDO? Does it mean the knocking down of a structure and putting a new structure in it's place with similar dimensions? Is a like-for-like replacement allowed? What if they keep the supports? Is that then an alteration? What is the lawful definition of an "alteration" anyway?
As an interesting example, Wicker Man also falls under this GDO area, and the park have already done some retracking on that, without the need for planning permission.
It's a bit of a ship of Thesus argument I guess. Say, hypothetically, they replaced one piece of track and one support on Nemesis each year. That would be fine, as seen by Wicker Man. So surely replacing all the track and all the supports at once would be fine too?
I imagine that's what this application is seeking to clarify. It could also be clarifying about any potential noise concerns from deconstruction and construction too.
As for the rumours surrounding a Nemesis retrack. They have been around for a while. To my knowledge, a Nemesis redevelopment has been considered for a few years now, with the park and Merlin acknowledging it was going to have to happen sooner or later if they want the ride to remain reliable and enjoyable. Maybe if Covid wasn't a thing it would already have happened / been underway. It presumably won't be cheap, and will be in lieu of a major coaster (not that Towers needs another new coaster yet anyway imo), so I would expect they would do some additional work (SFX stuff, theming, Sub Terra returns, etc etc) to make it marketable too.
Large parts of Alton Towers are covered by a General Development Order (GDO). In short, this means that the park do not need to apply for planning permission to build rides in these areas, so long as they fit with certain, pre-agreed conditions. The park may still submit full plans out of courtesy, or if a part of the application doesn't fit within the existing conditions.
More details can be found thanks to Towers Street: https://towersstreet.com/features/articles/alton-towers-planning-restrictions/#partfour
Now, Nemesis' location falls within these GDO area. So they would not need planning permission to build something there. But let's have a look at the exact wording of the GDO, from that wonderful TS article:
The key words here are "altered" and "replaced".
Say the park want to do a full track replacement, like-for-like. What is the definition of "replaced" in the GDO? Does it mean the knocking down of a structure and putting a new structure in it's place with similar dimensions? Is a like-for-like replacement allowed? What if they keep the supports? Is that then an alteration? What is the lawful definition of an "alteration" anyway?
As an interesting example, Wicker Man also falls under this GDO area, and the park have already done some retracking on that, without the need for planning permission.
It's a bit of a ship of Thesus argument I guess. Say, hypothetically, they replaced one piece of track and one support on Nemesis each year. That would be fine, as seen by Wicker Man. So surely replacing all the track and all the supports at once would be fine too?
I imagine that's what this application is seeking to clarify. It could also be clarifying about any potential noise concerns from deconstruction and construction too.
As for the rumours surrounding a Nemesis retrack. They have been around for a while. To my knowledge, a Nemesis redevelopment has been considered for a few years now, with the park and Merlin acknowledging it was going to have to happen sooner or later if they want the ride to remain reliable and enjoyable. Maybe if Covid wasn't a thing it would already have happened / been underway. It presumably won't be cheap, and will be in lieu of a major coaster (not that Towers needs another new coaster yet anyway imo), so I would expect they would do some additional work (SFX stuff, theming, Sub Terra returns, etc etc) to make it marketable too.
Matt N
CF Legend
I think a full retrack would be quite a grey area in terms of whether they’d need to seek planning permission, so they’re probably just checking. There’s very little precedent for this type of thing happening in Britain.
On one hand, a complete Nemesis retrack would be a fairly substantial construction project, comparable in terms of scale to a brand new major coaster, so the council and local residents may very well want to know about it.
On the other hand, it’s a like-for-like replacement of a structure that’s been in place for the best part of 30 years, so the work wouldn’t really make any long term difference to the locals. Heck, it might even make the ride more well-liked by locals, as a lot of new B&Ms are quieter than their old coasters! I know Hulk was certainly quieter after the retrack was done, for what it’s worth.
With that in mind, it’s a toss up as to whether the locals and council would be bothered or not, so Towers is likely erring on the side of caution and informing the council just in case.
That’s if this is a Nemesis retrack, of course.
On one hand, a complete Nemesis retrack would be a fairly substantial construction project, comparable in terms of scale to a brand new major coaster, so the council and local residents may very well want to know about it.
On the other hand, it’s a like-for-like replacement of a structure that’s been in place for the best part of 30 years, so the work wouldn’t really make any long term difference to the locals. Heck, it might even make the ride more well-liked by locals, as a lot of new B&Ms are quieter than their old coasters! I know Hulk was certainly quieter after the retrack was done, for what it’s worth.
With that in mind, it’s a toss up as to whether the locals and council would be bothered or not, so Towers is likely erring on the side of caution and informing the council just in case.
That’s if this is a Nemesis retrack, of course.
Screaming Coasters
Strata Poster
Whatever they may do to the track, I will just say this.... PLEASE DO NOT PUT SAND IN THE TRACK.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Let’s look at it this way… if you own a property and you decide to knock it down and then rebuild it completely the same - you would need to get planning permission and building control involved.
If you are to knock down a single wall and then rebuild the wall - you wouldn’t need to notify anyone.
Basically, if they choose to replace a segment of track; it’s very unlikely they would need to get permission - but if you want to replace the whole thing even if it is like for like, you would need permission.
If you are to knock down a single wall and then rebuild the wall - you wouldn’t need to notify anyone.
Basically, if they choose to replace a segment of track; it’s very unlikely they would need to get permission - but if you want to replace the whole thing even if it is like for like, you would need permission.
Thekingin64
Strata Poster
If they do re-track it, I'd would love to see the stall turn after the loop become a proper overbank. Wouldn't take much reprofiling and is the only bit of the ride that would need improvement IMO.
Either way, if these works do extend the ride's lifespan in any way, I'm all for it.
Either way, if these works do extend the ride's lifespan in any way, I'm all for it.
Thekingin64
Strata Poster
Double post but something just occurred to me.
Nemesis was SW3, the next secret weapon will be SW9. 3^2=9.
Therefore, Nemesis V2 is SW9. Maybe they've planned this for years....
Nemesis was SW3, the next secret weapon will be SW9. 3^2=9.
Therefore, Nemesis V2 is SW9. Maybe they've planned this for years....
Matt N
CF Legend
Planning documents are apparently now online.
According to those who’ve seen them, most of the track and supports are being replaced, and the track is being filled with sand out of consideration for the locals.
EDIT: Source, as well as some more specific info:
According to those who’ve seen them, most of the track and supports are being replaced, and the track is being filled with sand out of consideration for the locals.
EDIT: Source, as well as some more specific info:
TPoseOnTantrum
Giga Poster
Even with sand that thing is still gonna be loud.
