Who really designs a coaster?

[Hobbes]

I apologize if this is a really stupid question, or if it's been asked before, but it's something I've always wondered about the coaster industry.

Basically, who actually does the majority of the design work for a new ride? Is it the manufacturer or the park itself? There are 3 scenarios I can think of:

1. The park gives the manufacturer guidelines (roughly how tall, length, speed, inversions, budget, footprint, etc.) but the manufacturer actually designs the ride.

2. The park designs the layout itself and then gives it to the manufacturer to be refined and built.

3. A representative from both the park and the manufacturer work together to design the ride.

So which of these scenarios best represents the way the industry works? Are they all completely wrong? Does it vary from park to park or project to project? Thanks in advance for any answers.

 

[ECG]

From the discussions I've had with various parks and manufacturers I can tell you that it varies from park to park, rather than from project to project. So all three scenarios that you mention come into play, depending on which park is in question.

 

[Gavin]

John Wardley. John Wardley does **** ing everything apparently.

 

[Taxi]

There is no cut and dry answer. It all varies from project to project.

Any one or all of those scenarios could come into play.


Draftsmen & structural engineers do design the majority of the ride. They are the ones who really design a coaster.

 

[Hyde]

Sometimes the park approaches a roller coaster manufacturer with "We'd like to do this, is there anything you have like that?" Other times, the manufacturer approaches the park saying "We have created this, and think it could work for you."

It is a definite give and take.

 

[furie]

Draftsmen & structural engineers do design the majority of the ride. They are the ones who really design a coaster.

Just to add to this (and to make sure it isn't overlooked), often the manufacturer will contract out the design element too.

Many companies use Ingenieurbuero Stengel to actually design the rides (over 600 coasters so far apparently) - http://www.rcstengel.com/

Most manufacturers are more a project agent and consultant. They take all the different pieces needed to build a coaster and assemble them in a finished product. Okay, they do the design of technical elements too to produce a product portfolio, but each coaster made is a mix of loads of different companies working with the "manufacturer" to produce a finished product.

So you'll have the structural/design engineers producing the actual design (Gravity Group certainly do this in-house, I don't know how much others use external agents), a steel fabrication plant producing the actual track and supports (sometimes owned by the manufacturer, other times contracted out), Control Box/Panel supplier, computer system and software engineers (sometimes in house, sometimes contracted), electric and electronic system control suppliers, cabling suppliers, electrical engineer consultants (or in-house). There's so much that goes into a coaster, and very little of it is actually "owned" by the manufacturer in a project. They just bring it all together on-site for another contractor to erect.

Of course, the manufacturer is constantly liaising with all parties. The park, ride design consultant (like Mr Wardley), manufacturing plant, small systems suppliers, etc are brought together as a finished and complete coaster project. It always amazes me we have as few problems as we actually see :lol:

 

[Casio]

^But do Stengel actually design them creatively? I've never been sure of whether Stengel come up with layouts and engineer them, or whether they just tweak layouts ever so slightly to make sure they're perfect; almost as one final proof reading. Different manufacturers have very distinct element designs, despite them all having rides 'designed' by Stengel. I'm not criticising, I just really don't know how much input Stengel has :--D

 

[BBH]

The way I see it is that Stengel will work with the draftsmen that work for the manufacturer after receiving a note of what the park wants. Then the former two parties will collaborate to formulate a layout, and the engineers of the manufacturer will tweak the elements to make sure that it feels like a B&M or an Intamin, etc. Then, the manufacturer presents the ride to the park and they decide whether or not to greenlight the layout.

That's how I imagine it'd work most of the time, but then again, as said, it varies from project to project.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

I suspect Stengel makes workable layouts from creative ones he's provided, most of the time. Or at least told what to include, roughly.

 

[furie]

I think like the rest of the process, it's a huge amount of working together. Some projects will require more input than others.

Does anyone remember the documentary about making Nemesis? The final wing over wasn't in the original plans, but as JW sat with the engineer, they realised (I can't remember which of them came up with it) that there was enough speed and room to drop in the final inversion.

That's how I imagine a lot of it to be, people with different disciplines working together. Creative, technical, engineer and manufacturer specific.

 

[andrus]

^But do Stengel actually design them creatively? I've never been sure of whether Stengel come up with layouts and engineer them, or whether they just tweak layouts ever so slightly to make sure they're perfect; almost as one final proof reading. Different manufacturers have very distinct element designs, despite them all having rides 'designed' by Stengel. I'm not criticising, I just really don't know how much input Stengel has :--D

This. All loops made by B&M look the same regardless if they're designed by Wardly, Stengel or B&M themselves. So the question is: what does Stengel design?

 

[BBH]

^But do Stengel actually design them creatively? I've never been sure of whether Stengel come up with layouts and engineer them, or whether they just tweak layouts ever so slightly to make sure they're perfect; almost as one final proof reading. Different manufacturers have very distinct element designs, despite them all having rides 'designed' by Stengel. I'm not criticising, I just really don't know how much input Stengel has :--D

This. All loops made by B&M look the same regardless if they're designed by Wardly, Stengel or B&M themselves. So the question is: what does Stengel design?

The succession of the elements (For instance, on Wildfire, Lift-turn-drop-Immelmann-Loop-Turn-Cobra Roll-...etc...) is what Stengel does. The design consultant will use that part of the ride and decide where each element will go, but it's up to the manufacturer as to how they shape the elements. Dragon Khan and Fahrenheit were both Stengel-designed, but if you're going to tell me their vertical loops, cobra rolls, and corkscrews ride the same, then that's the definition of insanity.

 

[Hobbes]

This is a bit off topic I guess, but I think it's still relevant.

Most manufacturers are more a project agent and consultant. They take all the different pieces needed to build a coaster and assemble them in a finished product. Okay, they do the design of technical elements too to produce a product portfolio, but each coaster made is a mix of loads of different companies working with the "manufacturer" to produce a finished product.

So you'll have the structural/design engineers producing the actual design (Gravity Group certainly do this in-house, I don't know how much others use external agents), a steel fabrication plant producing the actual track and supports (sometimes owned by the manufacturer, other times contracted out), Control Box/Panel supplier, computer system and software engineers (sometimes in house, sometimes contracted), electric and electronic system control suppliers, cabling suppliers, electrical engineer consultants (or in-house). There's so much that goes into a coaster, and very little of it is actually "owned" by the manufacturer in a project. They just bring it all together on-site for another contractor to erect.

Of course, the manufacturer is constantly liaising with all parties. The park, ride design consultant (like Mr Wardley), manufacturing plant, small systems suppliers, etc are brought together as a finished and complete coaster project. It always amazes me we have as few problems as we actually see

So basically the manufacturers just bring together the various components of the ride, all of which from come from different sources?

With that in mind, why are some manufacturers so much more reliable than others? (Intamin vs. B&M for example). If manufacturers are having the various aspects of the ride produced by other companies, why is it that Intamin is so much more prone to downtime and problems than B&M? Can't Intamin just use the same companies as B&M to get the ride components and get similar reliability? If the ride is basically a mix of work from many different sources, why does Intamin suck at putting the various components together? Does it just come down to their more ambitious layouts, or are they using different companies to produce their rides?

 

[BBH]

^Ride designers such as Ingeinburo Stengel (butchered the spelling and I know it) are responsible for the design of the layout only - the mechanics, trains, systems, and computers are all designed by the manufacturer. B&M designs their [insert item listed above here] differently than Intamin does, which is why they're so much more reliable in comparison to Intamin. The parts for the ride are not outsourced, they are made by the manufacturer. The only thing outsourced to make the ride is the materials to fabricate the components.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Not really. Almost everything will be outsourced, and even more so if they're busier.

Wheels will by one company, bolts by another. It wouldn't surprise me if the track and supports are physically made by different companies. Every company will have a speciality, foam for restrains for eg.

My guess is that Stengel designs a creative layout with the park and the manufacturer takes that and butchers it down to realistic standards. Or, in b&ms case, until it's boring.

Then the manufacturer will put in orders for specific parts, which companies must make to their exact specifications.

I bet b&m go to a more expencive manufacturer for their track, wheels, etc. AND the plans they have drawn up are simply better.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[furie]

It's worth noting Stengel do more than design, they also do stress and rider force testing too.

So it's possible B&M do their own design now anyway and just ask Stengel to check the figures. They may ask Stengel to make sure that rider forces don't hit an excess, but Intamin have a higher force they will let riders suffer?

Then if you mix in cheaper components, you have why Intamin are less reliable.

 

[Jared]

Can I just add, although B&M outsource the track fabrication, the rails and trains are built in Switzerland. B&M rails are made using a top secret process that produces a smoother ride.

 

[Darren B]

I always thought that the parks looked on enthusiast websites, took note of what we wanted, then took our RCT designs and built the coaster from there...

I didn't realise that's not what actually happens.

 

[furie]

They used to, but RCT3 is too cartoony- they couldn't get the restraints right because real people don't have giant heads - and nobody uses RCT2 any more. SO they lost all their source material.

But yeah, up until four or five years ago, that was definitely the way.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I might also add that if coaster construction is anything like building construction, there probably are separate contracts for groundwork/footers and above-ground erection. In short, one company will come in and prepare the land, and pour footers capable of safely withstanding the specified load from the supports that will be placed onto it. They will then pack up, leave, and get paid. Then another company comes in to fit supports to said footers, and attach the pieces of track to the supports again. Both supports and track pieces will arrive pre-cut from yet another company. All the construction company does is assembling the trackwork, kind of like LEGO bricks. Then they pack up and leave, and get paid.
Later, electric installations. Another company.
Trains come from yet another supplier. Physical delivery might be done by a separate transport company.
The engineers from the coaster manufacturer will mostly be there to supervise the work, and make sure everything comes up as intended. I guess that depending on the project model (of which there are countless), the manufacturer will own responsibility the coaster until final inspection takes place. If it passes, it will be handed over to the park.

Also, if track pieces have to be lifted really tall, the crane operators will probably also be a separate contract and a separate company.

A couple of my subjects at university now deals with how construction works. It's almost laughable how many different companies can be involved in a project (and let's not get started on suppliers on top of that). I'm not sure if coaster construction differs a lot from building or infrastructure construction, but it would surprise me if it wasn't. After all, this is a big business with many well-grounded norms and traditions. The actual product they construct shouldn't make that much of a difference.