Universal UK theme park in Bedford

[Robbie]

I also think people have been overstating Wicked's popularity and staying power on the basis of there being a long-running musical in London. Shows in London are very often frequented by a largely tourist customer base. London, and the UK, does not have any particular affinity or fondness for Wicked in my opinion.

A Wicked land would basically be The Wizard of Oz, which was first published 125 years ago and has never gone out of print. I think it's fair to say by now that it's quite popular.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Wicked would be a crap theme imo.

Can't really elaborate on that, or justify my opinion... It is just an opinion, Wicked would be rubbish.

I'm not 'excited' by any of the rumoured themes to be honest. LotR is the most exciting, but as mentioned previously, I just can't see it in the concept.

Thankfully, there are people with far more creative vision than me in charge of this project. I'm sure that, if they select a theme, then they will have a vision for it, and it will be outstanding.

 

[Wandering Northener]

Latest update from Bedford Council including discussion on pausing of the new station at Wixams.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

So that's 3 train stations that will be directly connected?

For the locals, is there an advantage to having Milton Keynes station connected by regular buses? Are there trains that stop at MK which won't be able to also stop at either of the Universal stations?

Also, I said from the start that they'll be looking to connect it with Eurostar, and create a way for people to do Disney and Universal, looks like a semi confirmation in here that this is, at least, being looked into.

 

[Graeme]

According to the BBC, this is a century-long plan. Sounds very much like expansions to the first park are planned, then a 2nd gate, then expansions to that one, I'd say.

Mr Thompson insisted that the UK attraction would be the only Universal site in Europe - and not the first of many.

"This is probably our real destination in Europe, and we do expect to draw from all over Europe," he said.

Wow! Can't believe how lucky we are to have got it.

"A country with the population and the tourist visitation of the UK should have probably three of the top 25 theme parks in the world.

"Right now they don't have any - and our smallest park that we operate anywhere in the world draws nine million people.

Ouch!

The company confirmed planning documents would be submitted to the government "in the next couple of months", with construction still targeted to start in 2026.

 

[Tonkso]

All trains that stop at MK will not call at any Universal station, because MK is on the WCML, Bedford is on the MML. Some EWR trains were planned to head up to MK and reverse, I believe, though I don't see how the alignment at Bletchley would allow it.

To access Universal from MK it will require a change at Bletchley, which isn't too bad.

 

[Tonkso]

According to the BBC, this is a century-long plan. Sounds very much like expansions to the first park are planned, then a 2nd gate, then expansions to that one, I'd say.



Wow! Can't believe how lucky we are to have got it.



Ouch!

I think they're a little unfair with that 9m comment, given the local councils have actively nerfed our largest parks for decades. Do these people really think Merlin want to operate short hours and have height, noise and sightline restrictions?

 

[Nicky Borrill]

All trains that stop at MK will not call at any Universal station, because MK is on the WCML, Bedford is on the MML. Some EWR trains were planned to head up to MK and reverse, I believe, though I don't see how the alignment at Bletchley would allow it.

To access Universal from MK it will require a change at Bletchley, which isn't too bad.

That's the nerdiness we needed... I knew CF wouldn't let me down.

I knew Bedford was on the Midland Mainline (Kind of, I think all points beyond Kettering 'currently' require a change?) as that's the one that will benefit us. But I didn't know much about the line on the other side of the park... The 'Marston Vale' line. I thought the Marston Vale was supposed to connect Bedford with MK, which would make a bus redundant, as you'll just switch trains in MK, surely?

Presumably the Eurostar rumour is an extension through St Pancras onto the midland mainline, since they both terminate there already?

 

[Tonkso]

So the Marston Vale Line is the last remnant of the old Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge. The line no longer exists between Bedford and Cambridge.
Interchange with the WCML is at Bletchley, the next stop south from Milton Keynes. Fun fact, Bletchley Park was chosen for its wartime role precisely because of its location on the railway halfway between Oxford and Cambridge.

EWR are upgrading the Marston Vale line, and the Oxford to Bletchley line, as well as building a new Bedford-Cambridge line to effectively restore the lost Varsity Line. Unfortunately, Bedford to Cambridge has been built upon in too many key locations, though frustratingly a lot of the alignment does still exist, just not enough.

The project already had a strong business case, but Universal has only strengthened it more. You'll probably find that the trains that will serve the completed route will be longer than they would have been, that would be my guess at least. This all depends on how much of the park traffic is expected to use this route.

Eurostar cannot run on the MML due to gauging. Eurostar trains are built to the European loading gauge (trains are taller and slightly wider) whilst the MML was not. Unfortunately, being the first country to build railways properly, we adopted a slightly smaller loading gauge (not talking track gauge) and kind of stuck to it. This is incidentally why you see double-deck trains on the continent, but not here.

The MML also simply has no capacity to take a Eurostar train. Those commuter Thameslink paths are far too valuable and heavily utilised. Additionally, given the cancellation of the HS2 eastern arm, the MML fast trains (your Nottinghams and your Sheffields) will not be moved to HS2 now, and will remain onnthe MML.

 

[Graeme]

I think they're a little unfair with that 9m comment, given the local councils have actively nerfed our largest parks for decades. Do these people really think Merlin want to operate short hours and have height, noise and sightline restrictions?

Yeah, they certainly have limited our parks to a large extent. Hopefully, he was just being matter-of-fact more than anything. The Top 25 most-attended theme parks tend to be at the huge, planned resorts, like Universal and Disney. Europa Park gets in there at #18 and Efteling is at #22, but other than that it's mostly the huge corporations. Alton is such a nice place and estate, I wouldn't really want it to be as overdeveloped and well-attended as the biggest, resort parks, but there's certainly room for improvement all the same.

 

[roomraider]

So the Marston Vale Line is the last remnant of the old Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge. The line no longer exists between Bedford and Cambridge.
Interchange with the WCML is at Bletchley, the next stop south from Milton Keynes. Fun fact, Bletchley Park was chosen for its wartime role precisely because of its location on the railway halfway between Oxford and Cambridge.

EWR are upgrading the Marston Vale line, and the Oxford to Bletchley line, as well as building a new Bedford-Cambridge line to effectively restore the lost Varsity Line. Unfortunately, Bedford to Cambridge has been built upon in too many key locations, though frustratingly a lot of the alignment does still exist, just not enough.

The project already had a strong business case, but Universal has only strengthened it more. You'll probably find that the trains that will serve the completed route will be longer than they would have been, that would be my guess at least. This all depends on how much of the park traffic is expected to use this route.

Eurostar cannot run on the MML due to gauging. Eurostar trains are built to the European loading gauge (trains are taller and slightly wider) whilst the MML was not. Unfortunately, being the first country to build railways properly, we adopted a slightly smaller loading gauge (not talking track gauge) and kind of stuck to it. This is incidentally why you see double-deck trains on the continent, but not here.

The MML also simply has no capacity to take a Eurostar train. Those commuter Thameslink paths are far too valuable and heavily utilised. Additionally, given the cancellation of the HS2 eastern arm, the MML fast trains (your Nottinghams and your Sheffields) will not be moved to HS2 now, and will remain onnthe MML.

Marston Vale is the one with those new retrofitted battery operated trains right? Will be interesting to see how they fare.

Universal and Bletchley Park Weekender sounds right up my street

 

[Nicky Borrill]

So the Marston Vale Line is the last remnant of the old Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge. The line no longer exists between Bedford and Cambridge.
Interchange with the WCML is at Bletchley, the next stop south from Milton Keynes. Fun fact, Bletchley Park was chosen for its wartime role precisely because of its location on the railway halfway between Oxford and Cambridge.

EWR are upgrading the Marston Vale line, and the Oxford to Bletchley line, as well as building a new Bedford-Cambridge line to effectively restore the lost Varsity Line. Unfortunately, Bedford to Cambridge has been built upon in too many key locations, though frustratingly a lot of the alignment does still exist, just not enough.

The project already had a strong business case, but Universal has only strengthened it more. You'll probably find that the trains that will serve the completed route will be longer than they would have been, that would be my guess at least. This all depends on how much of the park traffic is expected to use this route.

Eurostar cannot run on the MML due to gauging. Eurostar trains are built to the European loading gauge (trains are taller and slightly wider) whilst the MML was not. Unfortunately, being the first country to build railways properly, we adopted a slightly smaller loading gauge (not talking track gauge) and kind of stuck to it. This is incidentally why you see double-deck trains on the continent, but not here.

The MML also simply has no capacity to take a Eurostar train. Those commuter Thameslink paths are far too valuable and heavily utilised. Additionally, given the cancellation of the HS2 eastern arm, the MML fast trains (your Nottinghams and your Sheffields) will not be moved to HS2 now, and will remain onnthe MML.

So do you think it would be a change at St Pancras from Eurostar onto the MML fast trains? Derby to London takes around 90 minutes on this line with these trains, so would Bedford to London and vica versa be less than half of that if direct? (I read 37 mins on google AI, but that's about as useful as a chocolate teapot.)

In which case, it's not really a rumour is it, it's an inevitability? All it will take is some direct trains between Universal and London added to the schedule, and Eurostar is connected. Although, when you say the MML has no capacity, what do you mean? Would this prevent additional direct trains being added to the schedule also?

 

[Tonkso]

Basically three northbound mainlines out of London are at capacity (the Chiltern out od Marylebone is not), so a scheme to relieve them by moving the non-stop intercity trains on to new tracks where they don't need to share with stopping traffic was devised, this became HS2 (which was always about capacity, not speed). The Bedford-London section of the MML is rammed full with Thameslink and EMR trains. Running more trains is not really possible. Some EMR services which currently call at Bedford will call at Wixams, as well as every Thameslink. Universal travellers from Europe will indeed need to change at St Pancras.

Additionally, Eurostar services require border facilities, something not practical for Wixams.

 

[Coastiesaurus]

Basically three northbound mainlines out of London are at capacity (the Chiltern out od Marylebone is not), so a scheme to relieve them by moving the non-stop intercity trains on to new tracks where they don't need to share with stopping traffic was devised, this became HS2 (which was always about capacity, not speed). The Bedford-London section of the MML is rammed full with Thameslink and EMR trains. Running more trains is not really possible. Some EMR services which currently call at Bedford will call at Wixams, as well as every Thameslink. Universal travellers from Europe will indeed need to change at St Pancras.

Additionally, Eurostar services require border facilities, something not practical for Wixams.

Came here to say the point about the border facilities.

And yes, the cancelling of HS2 north of Birmingham is one of the most scandalous decisions made by a recent British government. It will at some stage have to be completed anyway because the lack of capacity is crippling parts of the country. Sure would be ideal to have had that opening around the same time as a major theme park resort in the middle of the country!

But I’m enjoying this mashup of two of my favourite things to geek out about here on the coaster force forums

 

[Nicky Borrill]

A bit of wishful thinking aside, I think it is mostly expected that the change will be a St Ps... So Passport control is unlikely to be needed... Having said that, the rumours of a much larger roofed station, mentioned in that council video, would mean passport control is not beyond the realms of possibility. At least in terms of the station itself... The same problems would still apply though, in that there isn't any spare capacity to accomodate trains heading straight to France (they'd need to seperate passport cleared international customers and domestic customers one way or another.) And of course, most importantly of all, the entirely different gauge, as you pointed out @Tonkso.

tl;dr I don't think passport control is a real obstacle at all, on it's own. Only when combined with the need for extra capacity on the line does it become an issue. The main problem is the tracks are the wrong bloody size, lol.

Given I live between Derby and Nottingham, it was gutting to lose HS2 entirely. But I do genuinely think it will be revived in some form or another. It was right, imo, to change the East Midlands hub to EM Parkway, and not the proposed Toton station. That way it could really serve to ease pressure on the Midland Mainline, which also passes through EMP. I think safeguarding of land is still in place along this section of the route, whereas it's been completely withdrawn along 2A. So we can hope.

Anyway, so... how long does it take to Bedford on current services in real terms, if a direct route is not possible under current capacity constraints? Trying to work out travel times from Paris. I think we're looking at a little over 3 hours, depending on changeover / layover times.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Everywhere is running with the "Eurostar to Bedford" headlines... EVERYBODY

What are the chances of the loading gauge being increased to accommodate the Eurostar?

Edit: I've just realised this isn't possible, as platforms would be configured wrong for the UK trains, mind the gap would be upgraded from a warning to an out and out threat! So what about the possibility of running smaller rolling stock between Paris and Bedford? I guess the carriages would have to have some solution to the 'gap' problem at platforms, retractable step. Did I read right that the tunnel is potentially going to be opening up to new operators soon? Or have I mixed something up there?

Anyway, I ask these questions because so many places are rolling with this story, surely they know about the loading gauge?

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On another note, City Walk... We know it's coming, but most seem to think it's missing from the concept... What if it isn't missing at all? What if Universal have taken the weather into account with City Walk too?

This looks like some sort of indoor city walk to me? I can't see it being part of the hotel, way too big, and can't for the life of me imagine why the hotel would need an indoor space this big. Universal's hotels normally have all amenities, like bars, restaurants etc, in that central lobby area, and that area on this concept is big enough. So what is this humongous, multi storey, indoor space out on one end for?

It's massive, definitely multiple stories, as you can see it's height at the highest point matches the hotel. (in blue) With a single story section at the front leading on to the plaza... (in red) You can also see that it says 'bar.' at the front. (in yellow)

I wouldn't be surprised if this side of the 'hotel' (in pink) was also part of city walk, or maybe just part of it is, with the front side still being rooms. You can see what look like restaurant entrances on the plaza side (in green.) The only problem with this small part of the theory is that they're park side, so maybe not actually accessible to non park guests. :/



Anyway, food for thought... Whatever that building turns out to be, will be interesting, because I can't see why a giant block like that is needed by a hotel. Indoor waterpark? Now that would be a pipe dream... I'm sticking with shops and restaurants, a mini 'mall.'