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The Truth About Disneyland Paris

Mark

Mark

Strata Poster
Now, I know that there are a good few members on CF that love DLP. I am one of them. Even as the weakest of the resorts, it is a fabulous place.

Furthermore, it is not unknown information that the resort has struggled from the day that it opened. But I am not sure I was fully responsive to exactly how bad it has been for them and it only seems to be getting worse. Especially with a recession that just doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Once again the Paris resort has made a massive loss this year, not the profits that some CFers seem to keep quoting!

Anyhow, the Telegraph have today published an article that chucks some numbers about and pretty much highlights the extremity in which DLP is struggling...

To highlight:
85.4 Million Euro net loss in the first 6 months of 2009
8.1% fall in revenue for hotels (from Oct 08 to June 09)
3.3% slump in Theme Park revenue (in the same period)
More then one massive rescue package. (263 Million Euro injected at one point)
DLP very narrowly escaped bankruptcy.

Anyways, have a read of this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... pound.html

It certainly seems to be a dangerous time for DLP. Just when it appeared things were beginning to improve for them. The recession has contributed in a major way, to the decline which is unavoidable. The article does seem to highlight the importance of the British Market taking trips there too.

I can't help but think that the figures do speak for themselves though. Park entrance alone is just short of double what it is for Alton (based on a two-day ticket). That is a massive amount of money and it would appear that despite the huge campaigns for children going free and so on it still isn't enough to encourage families groups into the resort.

I pray that they can find a way through the economic backlash and get themselves into a position where things improve. I certainly think that Disney themselves (with a 50.2% share hold in the resort) are going to need to step in and help rescue the place. Each of the resorts have actually weathered similar storms but the Walt Disney company do normally come out fighting. Fingers are crossed that this can happen again.

The repercussions for the Disney company if DLP were to go bust are quite severe because it would be a massive smear on their name in the sense that people would then in turn question the all conquering power of Disney magic. Granted, a massive deal with Marvel and the new resort in Shanghai are things to shout about but as we know, the media will focus in on the negatives!

Come on Disney, pull it together!
 
DLP will never go bankrupt or close, Disney have far too much financial clout to ever let that happen. If they can afford a 3.5bn theme park in Shanghai and can buy Marvel for 4bn then that €85.4m net loss in the first six months of 2009 suddenly looks pretty small.

The thing is with DLP is it seems the accounts were just way out from the start and still to this day it is suffering from those incorrect accounts.

I think maybe the only way forward for DLP is for Disney to form a takeover bid and buy the park outright and sort the financial position out, then start to add new attractions and the park can move forward like it has been doing the past 5 or so years. Its no coincidence that DLP had record attendances and its first profit in 5 years the year that ToT opened.
 
Huge point that you made there:
DLP is just a drop in the bucket for Disney. They (corporate) won't let it fail. 85 million is less than many of the execs make in a year at a company of that size.
 
Most definately agree with that point Spicy. would almost be better for them to let it go bust (secretly) and then buy off the remaining 40 odd % at a much cheaper rate?
 
I can think of one idea. Make it cheaper.

I went to California last week, I'm off to Florida in 6 weeks, but I have no Paris holiday booked why? It's too bloody dear. When you look at the prices and realise you pay little more for a 2 week holiday in Orlando (Disney hotels, Yacht and Beach one week and Coronado Springs the next) is just a little cheaper than Disneyland Paris (Santa Fe) for 4 nights, it's not difficult to see why us Brits don't go to DLRP as often as we should.

The European's have never really been keen on the place, and it's only after I went to Port Aventura did I realise how Britin dominated the crowd at DLRP is, and there are declining numbers attending as it is. The locals have never been in touch with the place as much as we would've liked, so make it cheaper for us. We'll go Disney!

I actually disagree with the comment about 'they need new things'. That point you made about the correlation with the instalation of ToT and profit is obviously valid, but a lot of families, I feel, don't really care. If they can get their kids to Disneyland within their holiday budget I'm sure they would love to go, but they don't go, because it's too bloody expensive. It doesn't matter about new attractions or new shows or parades or celebrations, it's 'Disneyland', and I'm sure every family would love to take their kids to Disneyland, no matter what new rides are there. Make it chepaer and this will happen.
 
I couldn't agree more.

Even with our Disney Vacation Club membership we are priced out of visiting DLRP very often, which is a real shame, because I love being there. If we are staying for 2 nights it costs us the equivalent of a weeks worth of points, in the top resort in WDW may I add, and then it is enforced that we must buy a park entrance ticket for every day of our stay which they put at 4. Regardless of your arrival or departure time. This making it even more costly. We are not even allowed to have Annual Passes for our entrance along with our DVC. If they would allow us to purchase an annual pass and we could use it in conjuction with our points for DVC we would probably visit more often.

It doesn't help when non-family parties are basically footing the bill for all the under 7 goes free and so on that have been put in.

The only thing that I do think is reasonable is the merchandise. Although this pales a little when the Euro is suffering the way it is.

The French never wanted the park in the first place and that explains their complete reluctance to ever visit. This appears to be a familiar trend for many other European countries, as you said. Which explains why they are so reliant on the British holiday maker.

The problem therein lies the fact that they have no guarantee that lower prices would bring people in and therefore run the risk of losing even more money. It would be a gamble for them, one that a shareholder is simply not willing to risk.

I certainly think that Disney, having experience similar almost failures (eg California Adventure) are the ones to steer the franchised park into the future and agree it would be better all round if they took full ownership. One thing Disney do not do is price out the people they need through the gates...
 
^ I agree. I think the biggest difference though (between California Adventure and Paris) is that California Adventure's issues could be, fairly easily, pin pointed. It cloned too much, it had little 'Disney attractions', and the fact that they built an entire area based on traditional amusement parks, which is the idea that Walt wanted to get away from, was frankly appauling. I can't believe how on earth the concept went from idea to reality without at least one Imagineer turning around and saying 'well wait a minute, this isn't us at all. You can see outside hotels from the boardwalk, there are games and stalls which Walt insisted he never wanted, and attractions which are not special or unique in the slightest.' My God, Disney's dumbest moment.

But my point is that Disneyland Paris is actually good. If it was in America, it would be amazing (I just think the American's have much more passion, and create a much better atmosphere than the French), which makes an even more frustrating point of 'what do we do now?' The studios is dull, but it was meant as a 'half day park', and I suppose it is. I'm not sure what ploughing money into it (like they are doing with DCA) would acomplish because it is an awesome park anyway. Unless they made the studios an insane amount better? I think that's a much bigger risk, personally, then lowering prices.

Like you said Mark, the lowering price is a massive risk, especially in a climate like this when Britians will still be put off because of the Euro rate, which is obviously out of Disney's control. But I am so shocked that even for a DVC member it is still that expensive for you! Surely they should be able to see that as an obvious issue immediately, and find a link between insane entry requirements and attendance.
 
We have brought it up before but the general feeling is that the majority of DVC holders are American and therefore there is extremely little call for DVC holders to actually visit Paris. So those of us that do want to, can't. Plus it would appear that Paris have got themselves into a situation of making money back wherever they possibly can because of how much they lose on all the freebies for kids. You would certainly think that as a DVC member it would make Paris extremely affordable. And originally, when we joined it did. You originally got free park entrance with your stay, Much like we do if we visit Tokyo or Hong Kong. They stopped that but never use to have minimum park entry ticket rules. This got added just over a year ago. They were actually going to develop a DVC wing in the Disneyland Hotel at one point but this was pulled due to lack of interest. Frustrating indeed.

Ironically, as you mention it, with DCA the Imagineers were very much kept out of the loop. It was one of Eisners final major projects and from what UC once told me, imagineers were kept very well away from the project. Eisner saw it as an oppurtunity to make more money, with very little attractions, lots of restaurants and lots of shops. Now that he is gone, the Imagineers can now repair the damage. (That is the very basic of it and I am sure if UC were still around he could fill in lots of the detail).

Back to Paris. Just seen another ad for it. £175 per adult, kids go free and you get a free meal each day. Its for a two night stay but what they dont tell you is the fact the hotel they put you in is the very cheapest and the furthest from the park. It isn't great either. Either way, they will make a loss from those people and its those who are paying normally that foot the bill.

I stick by my opinion that Paris was a poor choice of location for a new attraction; Despite it looking the best on paper. One of the most easily accesible cities from across the majority of Europe. They did their homework, the numbers of people who are within public transport or driving reach of the site was far better then any of the other prospective sites. Unfortunately this didn't pan out because from the very start the French were not behind the project whatsoever. They even campaigned to stop it! A fundemental thought here is that greater thought must be given to the surroundings when building these resorts and it certainly seems that since Paris they have learned that lesson well.
 
It's a shame because I think that the Paris MK is the best one I've been too still... Doesn't feel as cramped as California and just looks generally better as well as having the best BTM, HM, PotC and SM...

Obviously like all parks it does have it flaws (lack of water and 'in-between' attractions), and of course then we have the Studios, which as a park is generally one of the worst designed ones ever...

On the other hand, there's a lot of expansion for the Studios, but because of the 'blunder' of Tower's position as well as the Tram Tour and Car Show mean that any further expansion would require a lot of work (as being proven by Toy Story Land, which is something that I disapprove of because of the design of it)...

Disney themselves are probably the best to get the park out of this slump, in a similar way of improving California Adventure... Adding attractions in a similar vein to the ones due in at Hong Kong's new lot would be a very good start for the improvement to the parks, and then improving the infrastructure finacially obviously needs to be done...

I look forward to John's post in this topic...
 
To me the question of price reduction is a moot one; the price of entry should be increased if anything NOT reduced, but, rather than having promotions for 'children eat free' and such like, the emphasis should be on making the value of the visit feel better, by possibly making a second week in the park a nominal fee, and overall of similar parity to the American parks.

One of the problems with DLP is that in reality, it is Essex's biggest theme park, and as such there is insufficient 'reaching out' done to the rest of the UK, such as Disney affiliated flights and ferrys from the east side of the country.

It could also be worth making the Disney parks more of a 'hub' in that if you visit DLP, you are entitled to reduced entry to one of the US parks, or vice versa.

The mention of marvel is no small thing either; as Europe isn't bound by the deal that the likes of Islands of Adventure have, then it would make sense to have the next major investment in the sister park, would be 'Disney does Marvel...'
 
See I dont think the public will be willing to buy into it with yet more special offers. They have tried that to the nth degree. Unless it is one that basically brings in the bottom line that a 2 day visit is not nearly double that of Alton Towers. Yes, we all know that DLP does kick the granny out of AT but when the pennies are tight I dont think the public are going to see it in the "its a better place" so therefore worth more kind of way.

Also, what exactly do you mean by Essex' biggest theme park? Surely you mean Kent? Since that is one of the counties that has a direct train link with the park and then Dover just down the road. Essex has no direct link at all....

I like the idea of inticing offers relating to DLP and the other parks but unfortunately that is highly unlikely since it is run by a different company. Due to the shareholders and so on.
 
To be honest it was never a secret that DLP's finances were abysmal (maybe they should start hiring accountants who can add). Obviously there was a massive increase in popularity when ToT was opened. This was obviously no fluke and I think the penny has finally dropped for the management.

Within the past week we have actually heard that plans are finally going through to expand the Disney Village (plans have been in place since 2002 or something, only just been given the greenlight). This includes a conference centre and a new hotel. There are also massive rumours that the 20th anniversary (2012) will have a very large and expensive addition to one (maybe two) of the parks :wink:


Sometimes you have to spend more money to make money :P I honestly believe that the only way DLP can get the attention of customers is to add and improve attractions/shows. The offers are amazing yet they still don't draw in the crowds. Maybe DLP should just let the GP of the UK know about the annual passes? :P

It will still be some time till the debt will be paid off no matter what and Disney will obviously step in whenever they feel the park needs financially saving.
 
I certainly hope you are right Peep.

I dont think a conference centre and another hotel is going to be sufficent enough really. Half the problem is getting people there in the first place.

Having said that, the hotels are normally full up at weekends yet dead during the week so they might possibly be developing hotels with those weekend sales in mind. Its just a shame that the other 5 days are not really big pullers for them. The days where you can spend a week at the resort are some long way off I think.

With the losses they are currently making lets hope all plans still go ahead. It is known that DLP are reluctant to spend any money on devloping things like Star Wars with the new film so lets hope the money goes on the mother of all new attractions in 2012.
 
Mark said:
See I dont think the public will be willing to buy into it with yet more special offers. They have tried that to the nth degree. Unless it is one that basically brings in the bottom line that a 2 day visit is not nearly double that of Alton Towers. Yes, we all know that DLP does kick the granny out of AT but when the pennies are tight I dont think the public are going to see it in the "its a better place" so therefore worth more kind of way.

Also, what exactly do you mean by Essex' biggest theme park? Surely you mean Kent? Since that is one of the counties that has a direct train link with the park and then Dover just down the road. Essex has no direct link at all....
Click to expand...

In two words - Centre Parcs. people will pay a premium for a premium product, regardless of the cost - but if they can get that premium product for better overall value, say in America, then money talks. DLP isn't missing out on the short break market, but the long break market, and as such making the cost of that cheaper would be cost neutral, but is likely to increase overall spend per visitor.

Oh and by Essex, I was just being factitious; I was meaning more that the populous of the south east of England are as likely, due to simple ease of access to visit DLP as say Thorpe park, wheras the same can not be said for the rest of the country, for which Alton would be the more obvious choice.
 
slappy mcguire said:
Oh and by Essex, I was just being factitious; I was meaning more that the populous of the south east of England are as likely, due to simple ease of access to visit DLP as say Thorpe park, wheras the same can not be said for the rest of the country, for which Alton would be the more obvious choice.
Click to expand...

Ahhh, I getcha. Cheers.
 
Now what will help them is this, the plan to hold the French Open next door, but again its only for a few weeks of the year. The F1 Grand Prix race would have been a good thing and now the Todt is in charge maybe he can push it through.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis ... Paris.html

The other problem is how many times people will go back to visit. Again I know people from work who have been with their families and wont go back as they found it to expensive even with the offers. So if people wont go back thats lost income.

Tbh this year and last year many people are staying in the UK, places like Thorpe and Alton have had record years. If the pound gets stronger maybe things will get better, not just for Disney but for other parks in Europe. Even when we went on the Euro live the parks were not that busy.
 
I hope I'm right too Mark :P

To be honest at first I was not too excited about the conference hall but by the sound of it it will be a great addition to the resort as it will bring in more business clients etc. The long awaited World of Disney store (you may have seen the one at WDW) will also be coming to the Village apparently. Obviously everything I say should also be taken with a pinch of salt as DLP is always very random and unexpected (you should see their marketing for next year :lol:)
 
Having visited DLP for the first time this year, I am unlikely to return without the advent of something unmissable, I enjoyed it, but was ultimately Disappointed by too many small niggling things to want to go straight back, from the quality of the hotels, to the poor quality of the food overall.

I am not a huge fan of Disney per se, and have no real intent of ever visiting any of the North American parks; to me no amount of special offers would ever make a huge amount of difference, although I'd appreciate a more honest sense of pricing, as I have mentioned. Permo promotions, as DLP appears to have are if anything, more of a detraction for me.

It also surprised me how few of the rest of Europe were comparatively there, especially with the reasoning why the park was eventually located in Marne-la-Vallée, and wonder whether the park would have indeed been more successful in Spain or Germany, or whether Europe generally will never 'get' le mouse...
 
Indeed Slappy. I think Spain would have been better but I have also wondered whether they would have fared any better in "getting" le mouse... Hence my original thinking (and totally selfish thinking) that the UK would have been better overall lol.

Anyways, there is also this article, since we have been digging around that is of some interest. It is totally opinion based and was from 2008 but it is definately interesting reading another persons perspective and opinion on the future of DLP even if some of it seems a little redundant. Cheers to Marc for digging it out...
http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2008/ ... paris.html

Peep can I also ask where you get all your DLP info from since I am a big disney fanboy at heart and would love to get to know more...
 
Decent little article, made me think just how much of DLP's future may be down to attracting people over from the US to the park, and how much the Marvel licence may play into that...

Sadly the only way I think that the UK may get any sort of 'Disney action', is if Disney sees viable cause in annexing part of an existing park, on the back of the success of HIT's Thomasland at Drayton, and the speculated acquiring of Beaver Creek for Nickelodeon purposes at BPB.

I'll raise a glass for the Disney sector at Alton then...
 
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