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SFMM | West Coast Racers | Premier Quad Launch Möbius Sky Rocket

John Knotts said:
So out of 19 roller coasters, X2 and Tatsu. Yeah that really set people up to think SFMM was going to add more great coasters. I 'll give you Tatsu, but X2 is polarizing at best due to it's roughness. And I know Knotts and SFMM are not the same, but the same company that built Fury 325 and SV, also came up with the most boring possible coaster for Knotts lol. But hey, it looks fantastic!

Just sayin, You don't go to California looking for amazing thrill rides like you'd find in the Midwest. You'll be disappointed, because that's just not a priority. But it's okay, I've LONG since accepted that, and there are other great things about the state that keep me entertained. But the state's coaster line up is not one of them. So when someone says a Mack Spinner is coming, I'm like, cool. It'll be a cool ride to do once or twice, and then forgettable, just like the rest.
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If it was just X2, Brits wouldn't fly to Cali to hit that park. People in NY wouldn't go there. Hell, people in Arizona wouldn't go. You do understand the history the park has, right?

Largest stand up
First to break 400 feet
First to break 250 (for a few weeks)
First modern ****ing loop
Tallest loop (Viper)
First US Zacspin (NOT a good thing)
The first 4D
Largest flyer

Yeah those are all big terms, but they have more quality than 95% of parks. You mention Cedar Fair building rides like Fury and SV, but you dont mention that they have literally neglected 4 of their parks for a decade. They sacrifice providing attractions to the rest of the chain for one or two rides a year. You have parks like Valleyfair that havent gotten anything since Renegade.

This is theflagship Six Flags park. Not ****ing Valleyfair.

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And not that it does it anymore, but also first to break 100 mph.

Also, both Ninja and Viper are quite uncommon styles anymore, so that has it's own appeal to fanatics.

While I think SFMM has disappointed (I was really hoping for a Maverick style instead of Yolo, and I know most hate GL), I don't think it's all that fair to discredit the entire park because of a few of their choices. Everything tomahawk says is valid.
 
You guys make good points. But people have been waiting for a West coast version of Maverick seemingly forever. Or Nitro, Superman, El Toro or Expedition g force ect...

At some point we have realize those caliber rides just aren't coming lol
 
John Knotts said:
No one that lives in this area gives two craps about Steel Vengeance except the 50 or so enthusiasts who live here. Hell, Knotts has been doing almost the exact same thing with lame "half coaster" :emoji_poop: like Hang Time. This isn't by accident. They know what works.
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Moral of the story here.
 
John Knotts said:
I 'll give you Tatsu, but X2 is polarizing at best due to it's roughness.
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Ya, tell that to the regular 4+ hour line. I'd say it's a pretty big draw. Also, don't take X2's name in vain; it's the **** s**t.

As for the rumors, my expectations are low here since Six Flags just hasn't been doing many large investments lately. The RMCs are larger investments, but the price tag is nothing compared to, say, a B&M Hyper. They could possibly pull out a huge and expensive coaster, but a big spinner is the most likely candidate. As much as I love X2, it was undoubtedly a money pit and failure, and Tatsu was such an expense it only expedited Six Flags's bankruptcy. If I were running Six Flags, and my money and job were on the line, I'd be calling Mack.

The thing is that newer but smaller additions will draw locals back to the park not because of just the new addition but also to enjoy the rest of the park. It's all about building up a roster since an amusement park is about a day at the park, not just rides and coasters. I think the last two years at SFMM were great investments since they distinctly lacked dark rides and flats. A spinner would fill a hole in their roster that a Maverick type ride probably wouldn't.
 
Knott's doesn't have space to work with. I think Hangtime gets a pass because it had to fit on a footprint the size of a Boomerang. Given that constraint, I think we got the best we could expect (maybe even better) for that space.

I will concede FT was a much bigger disappointment, because there was a lot of land and space to work with, and we still got a very short coaster. To me, that felt like a wasted opportunity. But you know what? The GP absolutely love that ride. They eat it up. So from a business model perspective, that ride has to be a hit for them. With that sort of reception from the GP, I can understand why SFMM doesn't need to be motivated to go above and beyond. In terms of the bottom line, the GP far outweigh the fanatics. It doesn't mean I like it... but I get it from their point of view.
 
tomahawk said:
If it was just X2, Brits wouldn't fly to Cali to hit that park. People in NY wouldn't go there. Hell, people in Arizona wouldn't go. You do understand the history the park has, right?

Largest stand up
First to break 400 feet
First to break 250 (for a few weeks)
First modern :emoji_zipper_mouth:ing loop
Tallest loop (Viper)
First US Zacspin (NOT a good thing)
The first 4D
Largest flyer

Yeah those are all big terms, but they have more quality than 95% of parks. You mention Cedar Fair building rides like Fury and SV, but you dont mention that they have literally neglected 4 of their parks for a decade. They sacrifice providing attractions to the rest of the chain for one or two rides a year. You have parks like Valleyfair that havent gotten anything since Renegade.

This is theflagship Six Flags park. Not :emoji_zipper_mouth:ing Valleyfair.

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Tom took the words out of my mouth. I revisited the park last summer for Tatsu, X2, Twisted Cyclone, Apocalypse, Riddler's, Batman, Scream, Goliath, Superman, Lex Luthor, Green Lantern...The park really does have an unmatched lineup filled with rides that were innovative when they first opened, and that should be expected out of a flagship.


John Knotts said:
You guys make good points. But people have been waiting for a West coast version of Maverick seemingly forever. Or Nitro, Superman, El Toro or Expedition g force ect...

At some point we have realize those caliber rides just aren't coming lol
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From a business and marketing perspective, it's not a good idea to just ignore this though. It's a valid point that rides like Full Throttle and Hangtime sell well to the Southern California crowd (which Hangtime is actually a great addition for Knotts). Both parks have legitimately figured out their market, which is quite a unique one to say the least. BUT SFMM is the flagship of the chain - people travel from all over to visit, as it's been stated. If the park resorts to just catering for their immediate market, they're basically admitting that they're only interested in playing small ball.
 
Admittedly, the new Mack extreme spinner was designed to do things that the former version did not. Launches, inversions and quick changes in direction. Perhaps they could do something really interesting with the concept. But will they?
 
Actually, I just returned from a trip where I got to ride Time Traveler about a week ago, so it's pretty fresh in my mind. I did enjoy it a lot. It's not really that intense, but it was fun, especially not knowing which way you'd face on inversions or launches.

That said, they still seem to be having many technical issues with it. They were only running one train for a large part of my first visit, and even then, not loading the back car, which meant only 12 people max per cycle. That made for a pretty horrific wait time. The next day, it opened 45 minutes late, single train/no back car again. Though mid way through that day, they did manage to add a second train. Don't know if that's typical, but I have heard they often haven't been loading the back car for unknown reasons (to the public, at least). So they still have some kinks to work out...
 
Sounds like a ride that's right up Six Flags' alley. Put unreliable launched spinners in every park - just as long as the walking paychecks come through the front gate.
 
The only problem I have with the "spinner" rumor (and I've heard this rumor from several people) is I thought I remember reading somewhere that Silver Dollar City helped develop this ride along with Mack, and that was part of why the price tag was so large $26 million. In these type situations there is usually a clause built in that another park cannot build another one within a certain period of time. So now after just a year SFMM gets to come along and build another, larger version eclipsing Time Traveler?
 
John Knotts said:
The only problem I have with the "spinner" rumor (and I've heard this rumor from several people) is I thought I remember reading somewhere that Silver Dollar City helped develop this ride along with Mack, and that was part of why the price tag was so large $26 million. In these type situations there is usually a clause built in that another park cannot build another one within a certain period of time. So now after just a year SFMM gets to come along and build another, larger version eclipsing Time Traveler?
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Carowinds is building one much closer geographically. If there was such a thing, it would exist there. That cost for SDC was land excavation as well.

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You're also assuming Carowinds is getting a spinner which is very unlikely based on the blueprints and the crates which arrived at the park.
 
I'm a little late to the discussion here, but on the topic of SFMM and expecting something big: I think the park management would certainly be on board with building a huge coaster or two as often as they could, but those things are expensive. The park itself is unlikely to have tens of millions of dollars sitting in an account somewhere, ready to be transferred to Mack Rides once a contract is signed. That lump sum is usually provided via loans from a bank, to which Six Flags pays back in annual increments. This means that the bank has to approve the sums the park plans to spend on each new ride, as Six Flags is essentially investing their money with a promise to give it back later.

I'm not sure if loans are done on a park-by-park basis or if it's done chain-wide, but either way the banks will have to give thumbs up or down when Six Flags comes to them for money. The one deciding factor is: "If we give you this money, how can we be sure you will be able to pay it back?". Six Flags filed for bankruptcy less than a decade ago, they had a lot of debt to be restructured, which essentially means the banks got back less money than they were owed, a deal they agreed to because it's better than getting back nothing at all. The bank would not want to end up in that situation again. The spending spree Six Flags went on in the early 00's led to lots of lost money. Once burned, twice wary, or however that saying goes in English. So when Six Flags comes with a plan to build a new coaster and a desire to borrow, say, 50 million dollars for it, the bank might not agree to give them the entire sum. Thumbs down, go make a smaller investment instead. Plans will have to be adjusted, at least until the company has paid off more of its long-term debt and convinced its investors that it is able to consistently pay its dues.

Remember that it isn't that long since Six Flags put Magic Mountain itself up for sale. Things were bad enough that they were willing to part with their flagship. That's a sticky situation indeed, clearly showing how dire the economic prospects were for the company. Six Flags kept the park in the end, but after such a flop it is understandable that the moneylenders are less willing to run with major investments again. Tatsu, Riddler and the like were great from an enthusiast point of view, but they almost sunk the park.
 
^ I agree with you, however, at SOME point the company needs to invest big in their flagship parks, if they want to keep guests coming through that turn style. Investing a large amount in one or two parks a year isn't going to land them in the same hot water. This time they are being smart (maybe taking a page from Cedar Fair?). The last time they were building big B&Ms and Intamins in just about all of their parks. B&M and Intamin are out, and RMC is in. These guys in charge of SF now are not even close to what guys like Burke and Story were doing before.

And you can't tell me a park like SFMM can't support a large new coaster in 2019. This park just went to a 365 day yearly schedule, and their 2017 numbers were easily the best in the chain.
 
^All fair points, and I think it comes down to just how much debt Six Flags still has to pay off, and/or what their other obligations may be. Restructuring after bankruptcy may involve obliging to stick to low-risk investments, or paying back old debt in full before getting to borrow large sums again, or things like that. They're surely making money, but how much of it they get to keep (or their freedom to choose what to do with it) remains unknown.

That being said, it's reasonable to expect some decently big investments from them from time to time. The flagship has to fly a flag, after all. But if the bank judges something like Full Throttle as being half as expensive as the park's chosen alternative, and figuring it will bring only 20 % fewer people through the gates, they may press the park into choosing the cheaper coaster instead. Sure, you get a lot of fun for $50 million, but if a $25 million ride is more than half as lucrative within a defined time span, it will probably be chosen.
 
One thing to note on the up for sale was mainly due to real estate. That area was being looked at to be turned into houses, then the economy crashed.

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Man, that time just reminded me of how inept Mark Shapiro was at running theme parks. Thomas Town and The Wiggles...really? No wonder that guy was shipped out as quickly as he came in. He certainly didn't understand the LA market at all lmao
 
On a side note, they just announced VR on Lex Luthor: Drop of Doom will be ending July 29.

(Didn't know where else to put this info... is there a general SFMM thread? I didn't see one on a quick search.)
 
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