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Next European Park to get a B&M

CSLKennyNI

Active Member
I do wonder if there's any basis to the rumours of a wing coaster in a new Transylvania area at Europa Park?
Nope. The next EP coaster will be from Mack. Whether they attempt a wing coaster who knows, but B&M certainly won't be popping up.

Lisberg seems a good potential option if they do place a hyper along the side of their expansion as suggested. Although I would say a thought of Intamin or Mack would excite me more and potentially better use the limited space. Nevertheless as in that thread linked it seems the coaster idea isn't actively in development yet so we aren't seeing it until after the water park probably. So still some years away.

Phantasialand just space wise can be ruled out for sure. If they did secure their expansion in the coming years perhaps then (although I struggle to think what B&M model could the park really use anyway) but that definitely wouldn't be anytime soon of course (especially when factoring in construction time for the all the walls needed;))

Most other parks have been covered pretty much already.
So unless Energylandia are pulling a giga or wing surprise anytime soon; definitely seems like after Grona Lund it could be a while until we see another one in Europe.
 

roomraider

Best Topic Starter
Uhh what? I'm guessing this is a joke but I'm struggling to detect it. Wouldn't make any sense since Swarm is virtually next door.
Of course its a joke. Anything with the words London Resort in Is a joke. Whether it's a post on a forum about a made up coaster opening or a BBC news article saying the park is going to open in 2032. It's all one big joke.

As for the next European park with a B&M then Lieseberg isn't a bad shout as they looked at a large Mack Hyper that later became Helix.

We do have a derth of parks which could afford one and have the space but there's certainly some possibilities out there if they decided their next big expansion was to be a coaster. Most have already been mentioned but somewhere like Warner Brothers Madrid or Gardaland could If they wanted to I imagine. Assuming their overlords allow it.
 

JammyH

Member
This is completely personal opinion, but I feel like b&m is completely being left behind in the industry. They have stuck to their traditional coaster types and are not bringing anything new or innovative to the industry, like their competitors intamin, rmc and Vekoma are. Their prices are high and they struggle to design compact layouts which a lot of parks need due to limited space or height restrictions. I do enjoy B&m coasters, I just feel like their models are a bit “samey”, whereas vekoma is pushing out the boat with new launched coasters, STCs, flying models and Bermuda blitz, intamin is pushing the boat out with the new gen launched coasters and hyper coaster and rmc with their hybrids and single rail coasters.

If B&M don’t step up and come up with something innovative I genuinely believe they will get left behind. This is a fast paced industry and looking at the major coaster types b&m offers, other companies are now offering similar coaster types for cheaper prices but also with more possibilities such as launches, drop track sections, more compact and complex layouts.

Take the b&m hyper for example? If I want to build a hyper I can play safe and go for a b&m, or I can go with Mack or intamin who now offer arguably superior models. Of course we all enjoy a good old b&m hyper, but it’s nothing new and nothing special, so many parks have them now. Mack hypers offer inversions which B&m don’t and intamin hypers offer inversions and snappier elements than b&m does.

Take the flying coaster. B&m used to be the only major flying coaster manufacturer, but now vekoma is coming with their brand new model. Of course we don’t know how it rides yet, but it has improved efficiency of loading, can offer more compact layouts and features such as launches.

And then B&m’s other major coaster type... the wing coaster. Well it’s only a matter of time before some competition is offered against this model. We’ve already seen the likes of x2(albeit 4d) and it’s only a matter of time before a new company steps up and offers something more innovative and attractive than b&m does.

I do enjoy b&m inverts, wing coasters, and hyper coasters, they are all really solid coasters, but at end of the day they don’t excite me like when I ride a new gen vekoma or intamin or an RMC. I feel like vekoma, rmc and intamin are always trying to push the boundaries for technology and each attraction offers something new that their last didnt, b&m just feels like it’s been stuck in a loop for the last however many years.

So I don’t personally envision a new b&m to Europe for a while, at least not until they step up and start to innovate and imagine again. Otherwise I see parks more likely to go with other companies who can just offer them more dynamic, exciting, unique and attractive concepts for their parks.
 
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witchfinder

Member
Well if the rumours about the Surf Coaster being a multi-launch are true then I could maybe see Alton getting one to replace Rita (though I'd prefer them to replace Galactica personally). The idea of a multi-launch coaster through the woods/gardens is pretty cool :)
 

JammyH

Member
Well if the rumours about the Surf Coaster being a multi-launch are true then I could maybe see Alton getting one to replace Rita (though I'd prefer them to replace Galactica personally). The idea of a multi-launch coaster through the woods/gardens is pretty cool :)
I just realised my whole post was about how b&m weren't coming up with any new or innovative products, and I completely ignored the fact people are talking about this “surf coaster” they are coming up with. My head is really in the clouds sometimes.

What is a surf coaster may I ask?
 

dcxs

New Member
Regarding Liseberg the plans seems to have been changed to a more family centered expansion. Including a family-coaster, skyflyer and expanded waterpark. With how things are I suspect this might change, but the plans look pretty far along. Its all public here actually:

Source:
 

oriolat2

Active Member
Yes they did actually, totally forgot Parc Asterix was owned by them.
I remember a while ago someone posting a survey by Parc Asterix in which different options were give including:
- a family multilaunch (Pegase Express)
- a Zamperla Windshear (yet to be built)
- a B&M flyer

Hopefully Parc Asterix will buy a B&M flyer, as it would compliment their ride line-up nicely. However, due to covid-19, I could also see them scaling plans down and maybe choosing a cheaper option after the Intamin SwingLaunch and maybe RMC Tonnerre de Zeus?

One thing is to say: B&M might seem classic and for us, enthusiasts, tame but they are crowd pleasers, have amazing capacities and are reliable coasters. At the end of the day, these factors are what parks are looking for, not just the next adrenaline-junkie fix (Intamin), which would appeal to a smaller demographic.
 

Pokemaniac

Mountain monkey
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
This is a very interesting question, but hoo boy, it will take some time to answer properly. At least when I'm asked about it.

First, I think, the premise of the question warrants some exploration: what is B&M offering, that parks in Europe would be likely to build? I think the answer is related to why the question was asked in the first place: B&M's coasters all come in very big boxes. And they have a fairly limited selection too: the B&M home page lists only nine models for sale: Wing, Hyper, Dive, Flying, Floorless, Inverted, Sitting, Stand-up, and Family coasters - the latter come both in inverted and non-inverted configurations, although nobody has bought the non-inverted ones yet. Actually, only Happy Valley has bought the inverted one too, and I don't consider them likely to show up on the European market any time soon given the stiff competition from other, cheaper manufacturers in that market segment.

One simple issue greatly disfavours B&M, sadly: Their coasters all tend to be in the upper size range of what a park is willing to build these days. As @JammyH touched upon above, parks have a ton of compact coaster models to choose between. Launched shuttle and semi-shuttle coaster layouts have really taken off across the industry, while B&M has yet to adapt to the introduction of conventional launch coasters. The Dive and Wing coasters have too wide trains to function with a compact layout, and inherently need a lot of space. You only build those when you have money to burn.

Not to mention, all the competition against other manufacturers when talking about coasters in that size range. I'd almost say you could discount B&M's conventional multi-loopers completely given how there are so many other, cheaper, or more flexible manufacturers offering comparable products: Mack, Intamin, Vekoma, S&S, RMC to some degree, even Gerstlauer if you want to stretch definitions a little. I think there's a reason why B&M hasn't built a new, conventional multilooper in the West since Led Zeppelin in 2008 (and since then, only two Floorless loopers in India and Hong Kong - barring the two Hulk clones for Universal Studios, of course). Others simply build 'em better or cheaper.

Hypers were never a favoured coaster type in Europe - there are only six conventional hypers in total across all manufacturers: Shambhala, Silver Star, Big One, Expedition GeForce, that new one in Walibi Belgium, and Goliath. New Hypers are an extremely rare occurrence, and it almost seems like all the parks that could afford or be allowed to build them have got them already. And again there's competition: Intamin, Mack, and Vekoma all offer their take on the conventional Hypers. I can't even imagine what it would take for an European park to order a B&M Hyper these days.

That leaves us with four B&M models with a credible chance on the European market: Inverts, Dive Machines, Wing Coasters, and Flying coasters. At least there's little competition here, which is why those coasters make up such a great chunk of B&M's sales record in the past few years. For inverts, the only real competitor is Vekoma, but it seems like Vekoma focuses on smaller-scale inverts than B&M. Intamin dabbles slightly in it as well, but with limited success so far (although both would probably outbid against B&M's family coaster model). Anyway, large-scale Inverts are kinda rare these days. Gröna Lund is actually the only park to have built a B&M Invert worldwide since Banshee (2014). The situation is almost the same for Dive Machines versus Eurofighters: for the small ones, go to Gerstlauer, for the big ones, go to B&M, and the two don't seem to compete against each other much. For Flyers, we have yet to see Vekoma's impact on that market segment, but it's kinda tiny already. Only 11 B&M Flyers have ever been built, and none outside Asia since 2009. I'm wondering if the parks see the Wing Coasters as a better alternative, by giving that same sensation of flying with much less hassle at the loading station. Anyway, since they are still built in Asia (at least until 2016, that's recent enough for me), let's not discount Flyers entirely.

So in conclusion (and oh my, we're only halfway yet), the question to answer is: "Which European parks could build a B&M Invert, Wing, Flyer or Dive Machine?".

In the UK, I could possibly see Thorpe get a Dive Machine à la Valkyria, or possibly a Flyer. They already have an Invert and a Wing, and appear to see great success with them, so future cooperation with B&M seems likely. I don't think a Hyper is likely, given the sheer amount of space and money required. Then again, Merlin's near-monopoly situation for thrill parks means they can keep investment to a minimum without losing market share, so a new expensive coaster at Thorpe may not happen for many years. No other park in the UK seems likely to be able to afford a B&M (money- and space-wise) in the foreseeable future, given the abundance of cheaper options and, dare I say it, a general tendency to flock towards those cheaper options whenever possible. Why build a new Manta clone when you can have a Pinfari Zyklon with only eight previous owners?

PortAventura with Ferrari Land is a wild card in Spain. Well, honestly, it's kind of the only card in Spain's deck. A little bit of RCDB-ing around provided a list to illustrate: That resort has built the only coasters in Spain to go faster than 80 km/h since 2006 (the year of Abismo - all other coasters to break that barrier in Spain were built in 2002 or before). But if they want to expand their portfolio a little, a B&M is not a bad call. They have two B&Ms already, yet none of the four discussed models.

It's always hard to tell with France. Tons of parks, all of them either kinda small or kinda uninterested in coasters, apart from Parc Asterix and Disneyland Paris. And with Disney being Disney, and Asterix having ordered a huge Intamin for 2022, the French market for big coasters appears to be saturated for the foreseeable future. But hey, you never know, suddenly some park we've never heard of with ten million annual visitors will order a family coaster to take guests around the medieval exhibit or something to that effect.

The German parks are unpredictable too, and likely candidates don't really stand out. Europa Park is Mack's domain. Phantasialand can't build tall (so no Dive Machine), have no space (so no Wing Coaster) and have all the Inverts and Flyers they need. Heide Park has an Invert, a Wing coaster, and a Dive Machine already, and Colossos might be big enough to cover the need for Hyper coasters too. But they could possibly get a Flyer? Maybe? The title of Europe's tallest Flyer is right there for the taking. Hansa Park could be another candidate. Movie Park Germany seems like the park that would have bought a B&M, but have to fight their owners to get funding for anything.

I don't see Denmark getting any B&M's any time soon. All their parks are family parks with family coasters aimed at families with kids coming by car from all over Scandinavia and northern Germany. Dæmonen is practically the biggest thrill coaster the country is likely to see, and that's at the very smallest size B&M builds. By extension, we could write off the rest of Scandinavia too. The Norwegian parks are too small, the Swedish ones too space-restricted.

Benelux? Maybe. Who knows. Toverland or Walibi Holland could have some plans. Walibi Belgium building that Hyper probably keeps them out of the market for a few years, but you never know what they will ask for when the coffers fill up again in a few years. Plopsaland is in the same situation, with that Mack spinner. Maybe the parks are big enough to want a B&M, but right now they have other plans.

Italy? Eh, you never know. Probably not Mirabilandia unless Parques Reunidos has a drastic change of philosophy/deservedly goes bust. Gardaland appears to have most of the B&M catalogue covered already. They have an Invert, a Wing, and a Dive Machine. That does leave a Flyer, theoretically, but Flyers are rare. I'm not sure if the other minor parks of Italy are big enough to afford B&M coasters, but you never know.

Poland? Hard to tell. Energylandia seems liable to build anything. There's also Legendia, but not much else. Likewise, most of central and eastern Europe seems to have too small parks for B&M to be an option. Maybe there are parks in Russia or Turkey that would order something. Those parks have a tendency to suddenly splurge on really big coasters after years of total quiet.

To conclude, it seems like @JammyH has it right: B&M is outside the market for most parks, and they have many competitors for the contracts they can participate in. Big coasters are fairly rare, even at big parks, and B&M is one of many manufacturers to offer them. They have some niches, but do poorly outside of those. I wonder what would happen if the Chinese theme park market suddenly collapsed. Would B&M reform their conservative ways, and offer some smaller coasters, or remain steadfast to their principles as their contracts dwindle up? I guess we'll see. If B&M changes, the entire premise of this post may be turned completely on its head.

Whew, that was a long one.
 

Matt N

Well-Known Member
I just realised my whole post was about how b&m weren't coming up with any new or innovative products, and I completely ignored the fact people are talking about this “surf coaster” they are coming up with. My head is really in the clouds sometimes.

What is a surf coaster may I ask?
A Surf Coaster is rumoured to be B&M’s take on a multi-launch coaster, although no one really knows.
 

roomraider

Best Topic Starter
Hypers were never a favoured coaster type in Europe - there are only six conventional hypers in total across all manufacturers: Shambhala, Silver Star, Big One, Expedition GeForce, that new one in Walibi Belgium, and Goliath.
Not to nitpick a very well written and long post but there are seven hypers. There's a very big one in Poland too.

Sorry for being pedantic 😂
 

Antinos

Slut for Spinners
To be honest though, is a multi-launch coaster really as groundbreaking as everyone seems to be suggesting? Volcano was a "multi-launch" coaster built in '99, and we've seen numerous examples since then. Obviously we could see a new seating position or new design philosophy (ultra compact layout, exotic maneuvers, etc) but if the surf coaster is truly just B&M's multi-launch coaster product, they're AT LEAST a decade late to market.

To Jammy's point, B&M really needs to start innovating with more than just that little flip on Candymonium. Hell, we've even seen GCI, who prides themselves on building traditional wooden roller coasters, forced to innovate with their new train designs, warm-up to inversions, and new track system to compete with RMC. I'm hoping we'll start seeing some weirdness from B&M soon enough.
 

JammyH

Member
Agreed, if the B&M “surf coaster” is just a multi-launch coaster, what’s to say any parks are going to be interested in this concept when vekoma, Mack and intamin are all already producing very high quality products within this market.

There’s no point making a crowded market even more crowded, and multi launch coasters is a very already competitive coaster type between manufacturers. If B&M create a new coaster type which just blends in, no ones going to be interested in buying it, they need to come up with something imaginative that stands out and is unique. Even if it’s a bit gimmicky it will still give it a USP which means it’s more likely to sell to the parks.

From my limited knowledge, b&m aren’t cheap, they do offer smooth and solid coasters but as reliability of intamin, vekoma and other companies increases, they offer more unique and potentially better value products. Why buy a multi launch from b&m when you can buy a cheaper one from vekoma? Or one with more character and unique elements from intamin which is likely to pull more crowds in?

Unless b&m start to innovate, imagine and come up with unique coaster concepts I fear for them getting left behind in the industry. B&m coasters are always solid, but they are no longer groundbreaking, and that means they are no longer the most appealing manufacturer to work with for the parks as they are still at a high price point.

Can I see energylandia opting for a b&m in the future? Honestly, no. The price point is too high and vekoma give them good deals, and vekoma can offer them a lot of what b&m can offer them and more.
 

Alessio

New Member
Not to nitpick a very well written and long post but there are seven hypers. There's a very big one in Poland too.

Sorry for being pedantic 😂
Actually both is a bit wrong, not that it matters, the post of @Pokemaniac was perfect besides that. Neither GeForce or Goliath are Hypers, both are Megas. Nevertheless, you can argue of course that they fall in the same overall category as big airtime machines.

Real Hypers (with Lifthills) in Europe are:
Shambhala
Silver Star
Hyperion
The Big One
Schwur des Kärnan
Zadra
=6

(Exclude the last 2 if you just want to talk about conventional Hypers)
 

Ben

Social Media Team
Social Media Team
And the new Walibi Belgium coaster also isn't a hyper. If you're gonna nit-pick, nit-pick right 😆

Honestly I reckon it'll be somewhere left-field again - did anyone really have Grona or Toverland as their picks for the next parks to get one, and yet they're the newest ones! Liseberg fits in that, albeit to a lesser extent.

The chain parks in Europe are a bit of a duff - Merlin won't put their hands in their pockets for one, Asterix we're looking 6/7 years away with the Intamin being so delayed, and lol Parque Reunidos won't build one.

Europa probably off the table, Phantasialand nah (and it'd be finished in 2050 if they did get one), Energylandia or PortAventura maybbeee? Efteling is one that hasn't come up in this topic a lot that I could see getting another one at some point, but I wouldn't put it at the top of my list.

Honestly my money would be on Toverland getting another one, or a park of that scale - I wouldn't write off the Danish parks like Poke has just because a similar argument could have been made about Toverland and really, is a Wing Coaster the biggest thrill coaster? No, it can still sit in the upper-end of family (like Fenix does IMO).

Either way I think we'll be waiting a while, not least because their order books must be bulging with demand from China still.

Who knows maybe Flamingoland will buy that B&M Hyper that's just rotting, never opened, in China and surprise us all.
 

Pokemaniac

Mountain monkey
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Not to nitpick a very well written and long post but there are seven hypers. There's a very big one in Poland too.

Sorry for being pedantic 😂
Gah, that one's on me for writing down the number first, then going back later to list the examples. I now remember that I originally counted Hyperion, but not the Walibi one (it's U/C but not operating yet, after all), then I skipped Hyperion on the second read-through, wondered which one I had missed, and decided it was the Walibi one. Or maybe I originally had the caveat of "fifty meters or taller" and then decided to include Goliath on the second read-through because it's very much a "hypercoaster" even though it's not hyper tall. Anyway, my bad!

Also, a matter I touched upon in the post, but it was sort-of buried in that big wall of text: Are Flying coasters being superseded by Wing coasters? Flying coasters were never that widespread, but since the rise of the Wing coaster, very few have been built, and I think SFGAm is the only park to feature both types. The last Flying coaster to be built outside Asia was Manta in 2009, and since then 8 Western parks have built Wing coasters (the Asian numbers being 3-8). Is a park that already has a Wing coaster likely to bother with a Flyer, or are they considered to fill the same niche? I've never ridden a B&M Flyer, so I don't know how much of a hassle they are to load and operate by comparison, or whether they give similar sensations to Wing coasters. When it comes to it, could we even count on the B&M Flyer as a viable choice these days?

Then again, you could make the same point about Inverts, so... I don't know.
 

roomraider

Best Topic Starter
And the new Walibi Belgium coaster also isn't a hyper. If you're gonna nit-pick, nit-pick right 😆
Bah I was nitpicking over a completely missed ride rather than coaster enthusiast arbitrary symantics of ride type designation. :p

Now forgetting Karnan is a hyper that's incorrect nitpicking :) always forget that's so tall I guess because it's very non traditional.

I really hope B&M can step up their game soon. They are still my favourite manafacturer but they have become a little stale. But as has been said before if you want a reliable high capacity ride you go for B&M. As far as I know they've still never had a major incident to do with ride hardware which is impressive considering how many rides they have and how long they've been around.

But a bit of innovation wouldn't hurt. Of course none of us know what the Surf Coaster is and it could turn out to be ground breaking. But I think inside all of us fear it will be a rehash of an old concept.

Back to who gets the next one I'm Europe there is always scope for a new park to arrive on the scene with one. The problem is in Europe we never seem to get big new parks off the ground. London Resort, Park Of Poland, Paramount Spain, That heroes park in France all crashed and burned long before they got anywhere near a construction site. But i guess there's always a chance someone makes their way to completion like Energylandia did and Parque Warner did back in the day. Fingers crossed I guess.
 

Rupert

New Member
Fascinating discussion, until this I hadn’t really considered that B&M have almost shut off the European market for themselves.

Looking at today’s new concept announcements from Intamin, or indeed Vekoma’s, RMC’s and even Gerst’s embracing of new elements and profiling, B&M now feel a bit stale and dated. Given the younger designers being employed at the other companies, have B&M stayed too conservative? I’d love to sit in a board meeting they have and hear their thoughts on how they can break back into a market in which they were previously the most-desired manufacturer to have in a park.

To the original question - I also wouldn’t rule out Denmark. Isn’t Djurs Sommerland planning something big and new? With most/all of their coasters being family friendly, a new B&M like a wing coaster could be a good next step. I’d imagine Liseberg is too close to go for a dive, and same with Gröna for an invert.
 

emoo

Member
I really hope B&M can step up their game soon. They are still my favourite manafacturer but they have become a little stale...

But a bit of innovation wouldn't hurt. Of course none of us know what the Surf Coaster is and it could turn out to be ground breaking. But I think inside all of us fear it will be a rehash of an old concept.
I enjoy the basics done well, but yeah this is sad & true. While it's well spent money in some ways, you could be really innovative with theming and ride concepts by shopping elsewhere and often European parks do this because they want/have to.


Who knows maybe Flamingoland will buy that B&M Hyper that's just rotting, never opened, in China and surprise us all.
If only, would make things a lot easier. And not a wright off suggestion either.
 
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