Merlin & Wooden Coasters

[marc]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

I dont count them as wooden coasters anyway but let's not go there I saw how much stick Ben got. Plus I don't rate that new coaster at Silver Dollar as high as others, I saw the pov thing and just thought it looked slow and lame. The next thing we know the Ultimate will be called a hybrid or woodie as the lift hills are made of wood lol.

This topics about Merlin anyway and I hope they stay away from them. Unless they build that one at Alton or the one in china.

Thorpe and Alton do not need another inverting coaster, be it wood or steal. Both parks need a good solid sit down air time steal coaster that lasts more than 45 seconds

I'm fully expecting to get slated for my views anyway, I prefer the really old style wooden coasters that bounce along and feel like they are going to fly off the track. New ones I've done could easily just be steal.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

The Ultimate is technically a hybrid... Isn't it"

I think an Intamin plug and play at Thorpe is the only viable UK option. Whilst a Gravity Group would ride in an ideal manner, I think the way they look would just turn people off, IF the research is accurate. Which, tbh, I doubt.

 

[IntaminToWin]

^Gravity Group is off-putting?

I don't understand how people can think that...
I mean, look at this adorable little snarl of timber:

And it isn't like they're built with scarily minimal support structures, they're solid looking things:

I think that this sort of thing is far more intimidating:

The hills look too sharp for their own good, and parts of the structure are pretty minimal.

 

[Taxi]

I think that this sort of thing is far more intimidating:

The hills look too sharp for their own good, and parts of the structure are pretty minimal.

It's actually one of the strongest wooden structures on a coaster. And BY FAR the best airtime woodie. This would REALLY give the TP crowd something wild and spectacular.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

Intimidating isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about perceived safety. They are different. El Too looks sturdy, part of that it because its vast and its track follows a predictable, recognizable form. Gravity group woodies are the opposite.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[Intricks]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

So using a hybrid structure like Voyage and Ravine Flyer II would be percieved as unsturdy? Toro's support structure looks meek compared to Voyages and Ravine Flyer II, more akin to the late Son of Beast, but with more umph.

So Im actually confused how Toros would be percieved as sturdier, when you said that the British GP typically see wood as a weaker product than steel.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

I think a structure like Voyage looks less sturdy, personally. Something about it just looks kind of weak. I think it would be read by the public as "steel has been added later to fix it because it'd old and falling apart". I'm just guessing.

 

[Intricks]

Doesn't that technically contradict with what you said earlier though in regards to building materials and their perceived sturdiness when compared to an American vs a British point of view?

If they were building a wooden coaster and people saw steel being used rather than wood for the support structure, the whole "steel has been added" viewpoint would be null and void as people would be able to readily witness it.

 

[Gavin]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

^ You have to remember though that the vast majority of park guests don't follow ride construction. They only see the finished result.

I don't think many people are quite stupid enough to believe that "they had to use steel to stop it collapsing" though.

To be honest, I think we're making a much bigger deal of this customer survey, despite never seeing it, than Merlin actually are.

 

[Taxi]

Give the UK an El Toro....Minds=Blown

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Doesn't that technically contradict with what you said earlier though in regards to building materials and their perceived sturdiness when compared to an American vs a British point of view?

No, it doesn't. Two reasons...

Firstly, the "British public think wood is unsafe" point is a generalised comment about Brits in general. The comment about Voyage was more an "I think". I know otherwise, but I think it looks less sturdy. Would normal Brits? It's the fact it looks messy, like no real engineering went into it. The cool cylindrical supports of a modern steel coaster every few metres look as though they are placed with care and precision. Ya know?

Secondly, Voyage's support structure isn't anything like a normal steel coaster. I'm not sure it just being made of metal is the point, but rather the picture the entire thing paints. When you have a wood structure sat on top of steel, what does that say? That the steel was needed to make it safe in modern times? That's what I think it would communicate to the majority of Brits. And is that kind of counter productive? Does that not still leave the doubt of wood being something lame that cannot compare or compete with modern technology?

To be honest, I think we're making a much bigger deal of this customer survey, despite never seeing it, than Merlin actually are.

Well, I thought the same, until that Thorpe wood project was brought to the surface. And then I thought "wtf, why?". I can only assume the cheapness of building wood appeals, and that's why they've entertained the idea. I think the survey was probably done FOR that project, as the timing kinda would match up... It was first referenced with regard to Alton though, so who knows.

 

[Taxi]

^What people don't understand is: They would never of built the coaster if it wasn't up to standards/safe. It seems that people have very little knowledge of how things get built. Why would a park build something that is unsafe and face lawsuits and bad criticism? Come on GP, your smarter than that. Right?

 

[Intricks]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

Doesn't that technically contradict with what you said earlier though in regards to building materials and their perceived sturdiness when compared to an American vs a British point of view?

No, it doesn't. Two reasons...

Firstly, the "British public think wood is unsafe" point is a generalised comment about Brits in general. The comment about Voyage was more an "I think". I know otherwise, but I think it looks less sturdy. Would normal Brits? It's the fact it looks messy, like no real engineering went into it. The cool cylindrical supports of a modern steel coaster every few metres look as though they are placed with care and precision. Ya know?

How so? It is literally a steel version of a wooden support system. Its looks messy because that is how wooden supports look. Just look at Megafobia, Ultimate and even the box supports of Big One for example.

I dont know, Stealths top hat looks severely unsafe to me, but growing up watching coasters and seeing less and less supports being used compared to older models made me realise that they are still pretty much safe. Look at the lifts of I305 and Skyrush and compare them to the overseas counterparts. Same with TTD/KdK and Stealth.

Secondly, Voyage's support structure isn't anything like a normal steel coaster. I'm not sure it just being made of metal is the point, but rather the picture the entire thing paints. When you have a wood structure sat on top of steel, what does that say? That the steel was needed to make it safe in modern times? That's what I think it would communicate to the majority of Brits. And is that kind of counter productive? Does that not still leave the doubt of wood being something lame that cannot compare or compete with modern technology?

You cant ask me that as it is something Ive become severely used to due to living in the States. My view on using steel as a support system on wood is not the same as say an European enthusiast. Ive seen how rickety wood can be, I know why steel is used on the more intense wooden rides, and Ive watched steel spirals sway in the wind. Watching an Inverted Impulse tower sway in the wind is severely unnerving, same as watching Diamondbacks track bounce after the train crests over the lift hill. Does that mean steel shouldnt be used either since it sways and bounces just like wood can?

Let me ask you this, how do you feel about Ultimates support system? Its wooden, yet it hasnt broken or fallen yet. Shouldnt that reinforce the idea that wood being used as a viable construction agent is safe? Yes, the ride is literally nothing but a ground hugger, but the lifts are still of considerable height.

I think you are giving the general public far too much benefit of the doubt over how they feel about a wooden ride being constructed, when more and more examples are being built that prove and say otherwise that are getting international attention.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

The Ultimate isn't worth talking about. It's at a small park, few Brits go there. Very little of it is supporte with wood, because very little of it comes above the ground. You also cannot see much of the ride... Except the first lift, which is facing away from you. You get no real opportunity to see the structure.

I have no doubt most people assume it's a wooden roller coaster, but Ultimate is perhaps one of the most unsafe and brutal feeling rides in the world. So, any negative preconceptions made by guests about it's woodenness will be proven correct.

I was going to mention Big One, it's got that same "unsteady" look about it. I've tried to explain several times now and you're not getting it, so maybe it's just me. Either way, steel looks weaker than wood when presented in the fashion of wooden supports, in my opinion. Stealth, through my eyes, communicates that the material is incredibly strong and able to hold it up with minimal support structure. Increasing the amount of supports, especially when they look "messy", comes across as looking less sturdy. As if it hadn't been designed well. A bit like packaging a box for posting... The more tape you use, the messier it gets and the more fragile it then looks. Whether or not others think this way I dunno, I just don't think steel support structure solves the wooden coaster perception problem. There's still wood involved, sitting atop a dense and messy steel cluster **** of beams.

 

[Intricks]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

No, I get what you are saying. You feel that a massive cluster **** of steel doesnt visually assure the GP as a singular steel beam would. Im saying that you cant outright ask me if a cluster **** of steel seems unsafe as Ive been exposed to it. I know firsthand that its sturdy. Doesnt make it any less messy or cluster ****, but it is steady. It looks unsteady up until you see the train barrel on past you at near 45mph. Same with my example of steel. Wicked Twister and its shivering spires. TTD looks more sturdy than Stealth, doesnt mean Stealth isnt as sturdy.

I still believe you are giving the GP far too much idiocy on their end. Yes, Ultimate will be assumed to be wooden based off of one lift hill, as does Gemini and most older Arrow mine rides; however, one look at the track and any assumptions are killed. That is tubular steel track that they have seen elsewhere. If a damn 5 year old can tell the difference between a the two, Im certain most everyone else can as well.

 

[furie]

I'm an enthusiast and have been to LWV at least twice (it may be three times, I honestly can't remember) and I never remember that The Ultimate has a wooden structure. It rides like a steel coaster, and when you're on it, all you really see is steel track. My lasting memory of The Ultimate is that it's steel - though that may have been due to the concussion

I know where Joey is coming from. When you add in a lot of "stuff" in a "messy fashion", it looks like you're compensating for frailty and bad initial build/design.

What I don't understand is how anybody could ever look at a modern coaster like Troy or Wodan and think "that looks unsafe". The structures are huge and solid, the wood doesn't move as the train traverses the track - they're very solid and look "initially designed as solid". I agree with Joey here too that El Toro and GG woodies look frailer due to being minimally supported by more solid materials. Balder looks solid because of the ray it loops back in on itself so it has a dense structure, but El Toro just looks spindly and like a good wind would blow it over (ironic really considering what happened to Troy :lol: ).

The biggest issue though is simply that the "British GP" don't have a good experience with modern wooden coasters. It's as simple as that. They've been on crap old stuff that beats them up, has been around longer than one of Ian's farts in a sleeping bag and is generally more unpleasant to experience. We don't vacation in many places that have good wooden coasters (or if we do, we don't go to theme parks often while on holiday). We go to Orlando and Disneyland Paris if we want theme parks while abroad. Other than that, we just don't bother as we go places to get tanked up and sit around a pool for a week. A theme park holiday is a very different thing to a normal holiday and never the twain shall meet. So, our perception will never change until somebody takes the plunge and actually makes a good one.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Im saying that you cant outright ask me if a cluster of steel seems unsafe as Ive been exposed to it.

I didn't ask you, it was a general pondering.

I still believe you are giving the GP far too much idiocy on their end. Yes, Ultimate will be assumed to be wooden based off of one lift hill, as does Gemini and most older Arrow mine rides; however, one look at the track and any assumptions are killed. That is tubular steel track that they have seen elsewhere. If a damn 5 year old can tell the difference between a the two, Im certain most everyone else can as well.

I don't agree in the slightest.

m an enthusiast and have been to LWV at least twice (it may be three times, I honestly can't remember) and I never remember that The Ultimate has a wooden structure. It rides like a steel coaster, and when you're on it, all you really see is steel track. My lasting memory of The Ultimate is that it's steel - though that may have been due to the concussion

Same. But the general public are not going to do that, because they don't have such an awareness for it. I think Intricks is wrong to assume they are paying this much attention, or care.

TTD looks more sturdy than Stealth, doesnt mean Stealth isnt as sturdy.

I actually disagree. I think TTD looks really frail. Stealth has huge, solid supports in a minimalistic fashion, but due to the sheer scale of it's big sisters, their supports look thin and frail. They also aren't presented in a very aesthetically pleasing way, so it ends up looking messy and frail. There's probably no way around it.

 

[Taxi]

^I'd say this looks beyond safe. Probably the only reason there is so much supports is because of the sheer height.

 

[Intricks]

Re: Merlin & Wooden Coasters

^^ Okay, I mistook you're general pondering as a direct question towards me since you were counter arguing my argument. My bad.

I still say TTD and KK look far safer than Stealth due to the fact that I can see it connected to the track every 50-100ft or so. You yourself even made a comment about steel supports being placed every so often gives off a better view of being safe. That is why I bring in Stealth. You have this giant section of track not supported (granted it mainly supports itself due to being an arch) that doesnt visually look safe. TTD looks beyond safe while using a 'thin and frail' looking support because it is used in a triangular formation. That holds up better that just two towers (which would have to have been MASSIVE to support it ala Superman the Escape @ SFMM) as we have seen the general shape being used elsewhere.

You generalize the GP as being uninformed twits about the safety and appeal of a support system that doesnt visually appeal safe, yet you have Stealth that house a massive gap in support, yet the GP still go **** over that and dont really care.

Furie better explains it overall I feel, as you dont have as many well built examples as other nations do. Well built meaning the ride isnt going to cause anyform of massive discomfort to the passengers.

 

[Ethan]

Don't worry Joey I know what you're getting at...