Do You Support American Gun Rights?
- Thread starter cjbrandy
- Start date
Dar
Hyper Poster
I think America has reached a point where gun control would be pointless. Too many people have guns for any reduction to be nigh on impossible. Not to mention what happens to the guns that would become illegal, where would they go?
Saying that, I think guns are an entirely pointless thing for anybody that isn't in the military or a hunter to have access too.
Saying that, I think guns are an entirely pointless thing for anybody that isn't in the military or a hunter to have access too.
mouse
Giga Poster
That article is hardly convincing. It only mentions RIFLE deaths, rifle being one type of gun and not guns as a whole.Ayy Lmao said:
If you simply Google it you will see that gun murders and deaths are significantly higher than those by knife/hammer. For example this website that logs the deaths by gun in the USA.
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
There you can see that in 2015 (2015 being relevant, as the article you posted was 2005 to 2011) the total number of deaths was 10,373. 566 children were killed or injured and there were 271 mass shootings. All this data has been validated as you can see at the bottom of the page, however if you don't trust it there's plenty of other websites which state very similar results. I think guns are having a slightly more significant impact than knifes or hammers?
To make guns less easily accessible will cause many potential murderers or mass shooters to think twice. The shootings often occur during moments of insanity, if the subjects had to get into the black market and go through a longer and more difficult process to get a gun I think the number of murders and mass shootings would become significantly lower. At the moment it seems too easy to obtain a gun, which normalises it and contributes to a potential murderer's motivation.
spicy
Giga Poster
One of the main reasons why the gun laws will never be changed, or at least take a very long time to be, is that there are far too many people like 'ayy lmao' in America that won't listen to any sort of logic and just reply with utter BS to try and validate their point on guns.
Must be incredibly frustrating for the Anti-gun Americans to have to put up with it.
Must be incredibly frustrating for the Anti-gun Americans to have to put up with it.
Snoo
The Legend
Youd really be surprised Spicy. The vocal minority tend to get the attention but a majority of Americans feel more gun control is not only necessary but coming. Remember, gay marriage wasnt a thing until the mid 2000's and now its the law of the land. The generation running the show is slowly changing to folks with different thinking. Reform in America, in any way, takes a minute but it does get moving. The real problem is that it takes a minute.
Mysterious Sue
Strata Poster
Is it a minority though Snoo? It's true that public feeling is moving away from guns in the US, but that changes state-by-state. I was under the impression that the majority of US citizens still back gun ownership in some form. Maybe that's something our liberal press want us to believe, so I'd be happy to see some figures that prove otherwise! Here are some recent CNN polls that agree with me though:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/19/polit ... -the-rise/
As for Ayy Lmao's comments, I find them naïve in the extreme. How about backing up some of that opinion with fact. Here are some data on gun ownership and homicide rates in countries around the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... world-list
I've compiled a graph (showing just European countries along with Japan, the USA and Canada) to compare gun homicide and gun ownership rates. I've used the data that allow for differing populations, so this is a straightforward comparison.
I think it's quite clear that the US has some major, major issues!
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/19/polit ... -the-rise/
As for Ayy Lmao's comments, I find them naïve in the extreme. How about backing up some of that opinion with fact. Here are some data on gun ownership and homicide rates in countries around the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... world-list
I've compiled a graph (showing just European countries along with Japan, the USA and Canada) to compare gun homicide and gun ownership rates. I've used the data that allow for differing populations, so this is a straightforward comparison.
I think it's quite clear that the US has some major, major issues!
Intricks
Strata Poster
Its a mixed bag from what I have seen and read.
Something that is being pushed (with LOTS of strong opposition from the NRA and the like) is a revamp of the system for Background Checks from a state-by-state system towards a base level for the whole Nation.
Seriously, you can live in a state with an insanely large requirement to own a gun, but just hop over the state line and get one lickity-split.
As for gun ownership as a whole - Im neutral on it (as I inherited a gun from my Papa after he passed, but Ive never used it nor have I bought bullets for it), but can agree with some of the finer points both sides argue.
As Snoo said, Americas views are changing, but we got a minority that backs an entirity of the Republican Party - and they sure do shout a lot over menial and pedantic issues (Gay Marriage being the downfall of the US, Gun Ownership, Religious Freedom and all involved, Confederate Flag removal).
So - 'Murica?
Something that is being pushed (with LOTS of strong opposition from the NRA and the like) is a revamp of the system for Background Checks from a state-by-state system towards a base level for the whole Nation.
Seriously, you can live in a state with an insanely large requirement to own a gun, but just hop over the state line and get one lickity-split.
As for gun ownership as a whole - Im neutral on it (as I inherited a gun from my Papa after he passed, but Ive never used it nor have I bought bullets for it), but can agree with some of the finer points both sides argue.
As Snoo said, Americas views are changing, but we got a minority that backs an entirity of the Republican Party - and they sure do shout a lot over menial and pedantic issues (Gay Marriage being the downfall of the US, Gun Ownership, Religious Freedom and all involved, Confederate Flag removal).
So - 'Murica?
Smithy
Strata Poster
Hahaha **** hell ayy lmao not only do you cite Breitbart but you completely miss that the study refers only to rifle deaths.
What positive things would come out of guns being banned. I would ask you to take a look at gun crime within the UK following increased restrictions after the Dunblane tragedy but, you and your sort don't care much for factual evidence and logical reasoning.
What positive things would come out of guns being banned. I would ask you to take a look at gun crime within the UK following increased restrictions after the Dunblane tragedy but, you and your sort don't care much for factual evidence and logical reasoning.
Snoo
The Legend
As you mentioned, it does change state by state, region by region, and culture by culture (north compared to south). Heck, even city to country can be different. BUT! That media bias does tend to show you what they want you to hear and not reality. As I said earlier in my short post, being hear and living here, you see things much differently than visiting or even staying for a few weeks.
You raise a good point. Even if guns are the source of all evil, banning them would still allow people who already own guns could still commit murders. It would stop any shootings from people who didn't get a gun previously even though they can get it from the black market, as another person previously stated it would be harder to get it off the black market.Mysterious Sue said:Is it a minority though Snoo? It's true that public feeling is moving away from guns in the US, but that changes state-by-state. I was under the impression that the majority of US citizens still back gun ownership in some form. Maybe that's something our liberal press want us to believe, so I'd be happy to see some figures that prove otherwise! Here are some recent CNN polls that agree with me though:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/19/polit ... -the-rise/
As for Ayy Lmao's comments, I find them naïve in the extreme. How about backing up some of that opinion with fact. Here are some data on gun ownership and homicide rates in countries around the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... world-list
I've compiled a graph (showing just European countries along with Japan, the USA and Canada) to compare gun homicide and gun ownership rates. I've used the data that allow for differing populations, so this is a straightforward comparison.
I think it's quite clear that the US has some major, major issues!
And why do I feel that a stupid parent is going to come onto this thread and say guns don't need to be banned, video games need to be banned because video games cause people to become murderers?
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I don't think stricter gun laws would help America, because as Gavin says, its cultural.
Even reasonable Americans have guns in their bedside tables... Just in case, ya know?
As Brit, it blows my mind how anyone could think that's necessary or a good idea. What if a family member unexpectedly returns in the night, and you're intoxicated or just in a sleepy haze, assuming the noise of another person in your house is someone who has broken in? That must happen.
In the UK, you look at someone funny and you risk aggressiveness, I have genuine concerns about strangers stealing my stuff. But I never fear being **** shot. Guns are only a protection against other people with guns.
Americans typically care more about freedoms that harm others and themselves then they do about legitimate cultural freedoms. That's weird.
I agree that guns don't kill people, people do. But, people cannot be trusted. Yes, anything can be a weapon and those who really want to do harm will, but a gun is an easy weapon that should not be so accessible.
I don't think changing laws would actually do anything other than cause a backlash as it's too established as a cultural icon now, though. I think that will naturally decrease, I know Americans of my gen who hunt with firearms, but none who keep them at the ready for trespassers, but a heir parents do. But its going to take a long time for that culture to change.
Given i spend extended holidays in the US south, staying in family homes, I get the impression that most younger people are either indifferent to or anti gun, most older people are pro guns and in the south, more people are pro guns then the north. That pattern is the same with religion, anti-human rights, obesity, tucking t-shirts into jeans...
And all the other bad stuff.
Things that shock me about white, middle class neighbourhoods in the US south is just the paranoia about everything. Healthcare reform is a serious threat on their horizon. And they won't let their kids walk half a mile to the school bus stop, they'll drive them down there. So weird.
Even reasonable Americans have guns in their bedside tables... Just in case, ya know?
As Brit, it blows my mind how anyone could think that's necessary or a good idea. What if a family member unexpectedly returns in the night, and you're intoxicated or just in a sleepy haze, assuming the noise of another person in your house is someone who has broken in? That must happen.
In the UK, you look at someone funny and you risk aggressiveness, I have genuine concerns about strangers stealing my stuff. But I never fear being **** shot. Guns are only a protection against other people with guns.
Americans typically care more about freedoms that harm others and themselves then they do about legitimate cultural freedoms. That's weird.
I agree that guns don't kill people, people do. But, people cannot be trusted. Yes, anything can be a weapon and those who really want to do harm will, but a gun is an easy weapon that should not be so accessible.
I don't think changing laws would actually do anything other than cause a backlash as it's too established as a cultural icon now, though. I think that will naturally decrease, I know Americans of my gen who hunt with firearms, but none who keep them at the ready for trespassers, but a heir parents do. But its going to take a long time for that culture to change.Given i spend extended holidays in the US south, staying in family homes, I get the impression that most younger people are either indifferent to or anti gun, most older people are pro guns and in the south, more people are pro guns then the north. That pattern is the same with religion, anti-human rights, obesity, tucking t-shirts into jeans...
And all the other bad stuff.Things that shock me about white, middle class neighbourhoods in the US south is just the paranoia about everything. Healthcare reform is a serious threat on their horizon. And they won't let their kids walk half a mile to the school bus stop, they'll drive them down there. So weird.
mouse
Giga Poster
But surely people with guns are more likely to kill than those without? Of course there will still be people who are intent on harming without a gun, but the easy accessibility of such a powerful weapon may contribute to a potential killer's motivation.Joey said:
I do agree that it is a cultural thing, and having stricter gun laws may give those who already own them more power - therefore making those without feel more unsafe. It's a tough one, but I do think something needs to be done. The ownership of guns needs to be less normalised, which could decrease a potential killers motivation. I think in the long run stricter gun laws will make people feel safer, as guns will be less prevalent in day to day life, and people will feel like they don't need them for protection.
Perhaps gun laws should be very gradually become stricter so they slowly become less normalised as shootings (hopefully) and ownership decreases?
Dunno, it's a toughie...
Having looked into this, it doesn't appear that the use of automatic weapons - or weapons that could be used for mass killings - have any bearing on defence of the individual. Owning 25 guns protects you from an intruder in your home no more than a single handgun would.
See, I agree it's a cultural thing so a blanket ban is NOT the answer.
The answer is baby steps. First you take proper control of weapons that can be used for mass public killings. So the automatics, the shotguns, etc.
By control, I don't mean "ban them".
In the UK, it's legal to own firearms. You must adhere to a set of laws though for keeping them. You must prove to the police when asked that you adhere to those laws.
So, a rough proposition.
If you wish to own an automatic rifle for "hunting", then it must either be kept with a local store where you can book it out when you need it (with proof of ID, etc) or you must keep it in a locked cabinet that only you and the local law enforcement have access to.
The first one is easy. The second a little more complex.
There needs to be a law that states exactly how a "dangerous" (yes, I love the ironic use of that ) weapon is stored. The police can arrange to check that you are complying with the law. It comes as part of your license. If that weapon is taken from the store and you haven't done enough to secure it (left keys hanging around, told people the combination code, etc.) and the weapon is used to kill somebody - then you are legally liable in some way for that death. Taking responsibility for the use of your weapon, but putting in place laws and regulations to assist.
Just an idea. People can have what they feel they need, but there's a system of protection in place. Everyone wins.
Handguns? If the 1% who have stopped a crime (only 50% of those (maybe higher) were criminals with weapons) by use of a gun feel safer with one, then fine. A single handgun can (and will in the future) kill, but the death tolls will be much lower.
Baby steps. Maybe the rules for keeping "dangerous" weapons expand on handguns in ten years, or twenty years..? Removing the cultural idea that guns are toys one step at a time.
As for the "owning guns would have stopped the holocaust argument.
Let's look at it shall we?
The governing party in Germany banned generally hated minorities (cultural scapegoats) from owning weapons whilst allowing the normal citizens to own guns. In a nutshell.
To apply this to the US to stop it from happening again. That means that the white Christian majority in the US should reduce THEIR number of guns whilst encouraging the minorities to increase their gun ownership. This will stop the American [essentially] white, Christian, right wing government from causing another holocaust in the US by allowing the oppressed to rise against them when it becomes clear that they are being oppressed.
It's a ridiculous argument to make and an argument that makes no sense at all when you actually give it ANY thought.
Though I did just essentially call Obama Hitler and lost the argument by default
See, I agree it's a cultural thing so a blanket ban is NOT the answer.
The answer is baby steps. First you take proper control of weapons that can be used for mass public killings. So the automatics, the shotguns, etc.
By control, I don't mean "ban them".
In the UK, it's legal to own firearms. You must adhere to a set of laws though for keeping them. You must prove to the police when asked that you adhere to those laws.
So, a rough proposition.
If you wish to own an automatic rifle for "hunting", then it must either be kept with a local store where you can book it out when you need it (with proof of ID, etc) or you must keep it in a locked cabinet that only you and the local law enforcement have access to.
The first one is easy. The second a little more complex.
There needs to be a law that states exactly how a "dangerous" (yes, I love the ironic use of that
) weapon is stored. The police can arrange to check that you are complying with the law. It comes as part of your license. If that weapon is taken from the store and you haven't done enough to secure it (left keys hanging around, told people the combination code, etc.) and the weapon is used to kill somebody - then you are legally liable in some way for that death. Taking responsibility for the use of your weapon, but putting in place laws and regulations to assist.Just an idea. People can have what they feel they need, but there's a system of protection in place. Everyone wins.
Handguns? If the 1% who have stopped a crime (only 50% of those (maybe higher) were criminals with weapons) by use of a gun feel safer with one, then fine. A single handgun can (and will in the future) kill, but the death tolls will be much lower.
Baby steps. Maybe the rules for keeping "dangerous" weapons expand on handguns in ten years, or twenty years..? Removing the cultural idea that guns are toys one step at a time.
As for the "owning guns would have stopped the holocaust argument.
Let's look at it shall we?
The governing party in Germany banned generally hated minorities (cultural scapegoats) from owning weapons whilst allowing the normal citizens to own guns. In a nutshell.
To apply this to the US to stop it from happening again. That means that the white Christian majority in the US should reduce THEIR number of guns whilst encouraging the minorities to increase their gun ownership. This will stop the American [essentially] white, Christian, right wing government from causing another holocaust in the US by allowing the oppressed to rise against them when it becomes clear that they are being oppressed.
It's a ridiculous argument to make and an argument that makes no sense at all when you actually give it ANY thought.
Though I did just essentially call Obama Hitler and lost the argument by default
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I had no idea that the Holocaust argument was real, but Furie is right! Imagine what the white middle classes would say to the idea of giving minorities more weapons to defend themselves from police.
Also...
I also think its wrong to purpose breed fighting dogs. I don't think they should all be put down. I actually think you should require a license to breed dogs but hey.
Also...
Except hammers, cars, roller coasters, bricks, pillows, knifes all have a purpose other than killing things. Guns are for killing things. That's... their purpose.
I also think its wrong to purpose breed fighting dogs. I don't think they should all be put down. I actually think you should require a license to breed dogs but hey.
The thing about hammers is the worldwide problem of mass hammer killings. Millions of poor europeans bludgeoned to death during DIY rage
Or we could look at actual facts and figures...
Those are the causes of homicide in 2011 in the US.
The actual (paraphrased by me :lol: ) quote is that "more people are killed by Assault Weapons rather than by rifles"
Assault weapons being any kind of close quarter weapon that is wielded by hand. A rifle being one type of gun.
About 600 deaths a year by "assault weapons" and under 600 by rifles. 8,500 by other guns - these figures from the same report being misquoted here about the hammers.
But, let's not let actual facts stand in the way of good rhetoric
Addendum: Just found an interesting fact. 600 people a year accidentally kill themselves with firearms. I assume that if guns were banned, they would be accidentally killing themselves with household tool instead? Actually, I'll bet all 600 of those are people looking for a hammer, but only being able to find a gun and using the butt of it as a bashing implement instead and the gun going off
Or we could look at actual facts and figures...
The FBI said:
Those are the causes of homicide in 2011 in the US.
The actual (paraphrased by me :lol: ) quote is that "more people are killed by Assault Weapons rather than by rifles"
Assault weapons being any kind of close quarter weapon that is wielded by hand. A rifle being one type of gun.
About 600 deaths a year by "assault weapons" and under 600 by rifles. 8,500 by other guns - these figures from the same report being misquoted here about the hammers.
But, let's not let actual facts stand in the way of good rhetoric
Addendum: Just found an interesting fact. 600 people a year accidentally kill themselves with firearms. I assume that if guns were banned, they would be accidentally killing themselves with household tool instead? Actually, I'll bet all 600 of those are people looking for a hammer, but only being able to find a gun and using the butt of it as a bashing implement instead and the gun going off