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Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Yeah, when I went I thought it was insane busy for a weekday before kids broke up from school. But we could have rode everything easily in a day if it hadn't "rained" (it was spitting). We had two days.

But I'm talking about when its dead - like how Snoo describes. I've heard from staff and regular visitors that quiet days Gatekeeper was walk on after the morning rush in opening season, whilst TTD, MF and Mav had queues. That's exactly the same at Thorpe. Part of that will be capacity - the B&Ms are just capable of better throughputs, but not to this level of extreme, and actually... loading faff on Swarm is so extreme I'd put money on its actual real throughput being lower than most B&Ms.
 
I wasn't particularly thrilled when this coaster was announced. It doesn't make sense add such big, but vanilla coasters to parks where there is already a huge selection of coasters. After the first year, due to the new coaster hype, they'd just fall into the background of the already busy lineup, while certain coasters which have stood the test of time will continually get queues. How popular are the other 3 B&Ms?
 
Quiet days are the measure. The only coasters in the park with a queue on the average day are TTD, Maverick, and MF almost without fail. TTD and Mavvy have some capacity issues but MF is still by far the most popular coaster in the park and when they have all 3 trains running, can mow down a queue with the best of em.

That is why, whenever you see someone ask for advice, you almost ALWAYS see someone tell them to plan around TTD, Maverick, and MF because those are the most popular and the best coasters. The rest? Besides the morning, Raptor and Gatekeeper are walk-on. Magnum can gain a queue mid-day due to TTD, but outside of that, you shouldn't be waiting more than 10 minutes.
 
Here's my problem with your argument Joey, you sound like anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That's how I'm seeing it from my side. Realize the history Cedar Fair has had with Intamin recently and you know why they go with B&M. It's a safe investment. You won't have significant downtime, reprofiles, or the plethora of other issues. Mack are simply not a major choice for US parks, which is a shame because the one Mack launcher I did, which is probably their worst, was fun. (Manta SWSD)

That brings me to my next point, why does every ride have to be innovative? Alton is full of gimmicky **** and the only thing that interests me in the entire park is Nemesis because I love inverts. Just because it isn't mind blowing doesn't mean it won't be enjoyable. Isn't that the point, we find roller coasters enjoyable?

Cedar Fair is clearly resisting RMC...look at GhostRider as all the proof you need. Maybe when they enter the true steel market they will.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 
Tom.. heres the thing.. why waste time on safe? We've had safe for almost a decade. Cedar Point is supposed to be the best park on the planet right? Why go safe with a coaster that.. well will maybe probably be good? I mean lets go spectacular! Their best coasters are all not 'safe'.. their best coasters were risky ventures that proved to be incredible. Safe gets you Scream! at SFMM, gets you Gatekeeper.. get you Valravn.

My point in all this is we expect more from CP. Innovation is what they do.. or should be. They aren't anymore. They bet safe and hope for the best. Go big or go home. Thats the enthusiast in all of us. Do you want to ride a mediocre B&M Floorless or Maverick?
 
I don't mean to come across that way Tomahawk, but I'm aware I sometimes do. I'm willing to have my opinion altered, though. I am OK with someone going nah I disagree, here's why... But people don't, instead resulting in poo-pooing anyone who defies convention WITHOUT actually explaining why they think otherwise, and that is frustrating.

There's a huge difference between gimmick for the sake of it and gimmick nestled in good design. I'm not asking for innovation from CP, just something exciting in physical experience terms. Something like Maverick! Something like TTD, something like (arguably) MF. I'm not a huge fan of MF, but I respect it and understand its worth because I listen to how others feel about it and taje that into consideration.

As for the relationship with Intamin being rocky - ya know, that was the case at Busch Willyburg too, and we got a cool Zierra out of it. That's a valid point though - I criticised Busch because the irony of being anti-Intamin and going to someone like Moser for a drop tower is just hilarious. At least CP, if genuinely concerned about reliability, safety and throughputs, are being logical about it. But B&M are capable of great, exciting rides, CP just lacks them. Why? Why else other than misguidedly trying to please the masses without understanding what they actually want? They want an exciting ride. Why can't we have more quality layouts that produce outstanding experience? CP has the space, the money, but yet they have no Tatsu, no Fury, no Banshee, Nemesis or Kraken.

I get what you're saying, that not everything can or should be some hyperactive 10/10, but CPs lack of exciting coasters is a problem given their numbers.
 
It's been 10 years since I've been there, but I found Blue Streak and Wicked Twister as the biggest surprises there. Mille was underwhelming, Dragster was amazing, and Maverick was a pipe dream. I'll be going back this year finally, getting my first wing and dive coaster to truly get to judge them.

The dive model is so limited with the train design and how fast it loses speed. I do wish we could see a different layout.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 
The biggest surprise for me at CP was Disaster Transport, which I thought was a tonne of fun. And yeah, Blue Streak was decent. But here's the thing, here's the problem, both rides were good because no one had been talking about them, hyping them, posting photos of them on the internet to get me excited. They were hidden gems in CP's sea of mediocrity, because whilst they too were mediocre, they were better than I expected. When you ride some big awesome thing like Raptor and it's less than you expected, but you go on Disaster Transport and it's better than you expected, you come off favouring Disaster Transport even though you KNOW it's not any good. Blue Steak is a decent enough old woodie, but wooden coasters are decent pretty much by default. This goes back to the whole "exciting" feeling relating to roughness I talked about a few posts (essays) back and why B&M aren't exciting unless they're really good. The same applies to dark rides, unless they're REALLY good, they're terrible. Blue Steak isn't anything special in the wider world of wooden coasters. Disaster Transport wasn't special in the wider world of ...indoor coasters. Raptor isn't special in the wider world of inverts... etc etc. We could go through almost ALL of CPs lineup like this.
 
Joey said:
I don't mean to come across that way Tomahawk, but I'm aware I sometimes do. I'm willing to have my opinion altered, though. I am OK with someone going nah I disagree, here's why... But people don't, instead resulting in poo-pooing anyone who defies convention WITHOUT actually explaining why they think otherwise, and that is frustrating.
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Hey, I tried not to :) If it came across like I did, sorry.
Please keep in mind I'm new here, guys. This is my third freaking post, and the second one that isn't a f-up
 
Jmaster said:
Joey said:
I don't mean to come across that way Tomahawk, but I'm aware I sometimes do. I'm willing to have my opinion altered, though. I am OK with someone going nah I disagree, here's why... But people don't, instead resulting in poo-pooing anyone who defies convention WITHOUT actually explaining why they think otherwise, and that is frustrating.
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Hey, I tried not to :) If it came across like I did, sorry.
Please keep in mind I'm new here, guys. This is my third freaking post, and the second one that isn't a f-up
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with having a differing opinion just don't be a dick about it. :D
 
On enthusiast opinion vs. general public, Joey you put it best as GP simply do not have "knowledge to pre-judge". Indeed, guests are taking roller coasters at face value. Has a big loop? Cool. Large first drop? Yeah, probably worth riding. The general public seeks the same elements and thrills enthusiasts do - we just have the benefit of also knowing what other models exist within the genre. Some are highlighting the notion that Valravn is a repeat of other coaster elements; but that indeed is an angle Cedar Point is going for. Tony Clark only just wrote this passage in the latest CP blog post:

OnPoint Blog said:
And in case you forgot, Valravn will be the 5th coaster at Cedar Point OVER 200 FEET TALL. Nowhere on Earth can you find five coasters over 200 feet tall in one place!
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Now in terms of general public opinion directly reflecting favorite roller coasters... things get a bit difficult to gauge. The most ideal way to measure this would be polling of guests to rank their favorite roller coasters. Such data is unfortunately available, yet Cedar Point has released 2013 and 2014 ridership numbers (and hopefully 2015 will be underway):

2014:

1 GateKeeper 1,898,204
2 Millennium Force 1,721,918
3 Raptor 1,414,447
4 Magnum XL-200 1,355,861
5 Gemini 1,298,304
6 Maverick 1,153,896
7 Iron Dragon 1,092,242
8 Top Thrill Dragster 1,077,885
9 Mantis 925,667
10 Wicked Twister 794,264

2013:

1 GateKeeper 2,165,965
2 Millennium Force 1,680,269
3 Raptor 1,511,099
4 Gemini 1,322,320
5 Iron Dragon 1,231,881
6 Top Thrill Dragster 1,171,135
7 Maverick 1,077,276
8 Wicked Twister 791,941

While ridership is not the greatest way to gauge popularity of a roller coaster - "voting with your feet" is still a good metric to bear in mind.

Suffice it to say, roller coasters an enthusiast would call mediocre - Gatekeeper, Raptor - actually end up being the most popular rides in the park. Other factors play into this of course - such as Gatekeeper and Raptor being the first two immediate roller coasters upon entry to the park, and mammoth capacity of B&M trains; but it would be very difficult to call either roller coaster unsuccessful given such large rider numbers.

Now to Valravn specifically, I also agree with you Joey - Dive Machines seemed to hit their ceiling with Sheikra in terms of design, and of the 11 currently in existence, 5 are smaller, one drop-focused roller coasters. The remaining, larger Dive Machines? All Sheikra and Griffon clones. All of which begs the question, how did Cedar Fair land on adding a Dive Machine at their flagship park?

Well, a few things pretty well shown on Cedar Point additions:
1. Focus on capacity - Cedar Point is the second largest amusement park in North America, with 3.247 million attendance in 2014. (Canada's Wonderland had 3.546 million) Indeed, Cedar Point has been very capacity-minded of late, most famously with Windseeker; went with Mondial in the interest of landing more capacity than Funtime's tower swing offering, yet ran into major technical difficulties due to wind dynamics and electronic controllers. For capacity, there is no competition to B&M. Their roller coasters simply offer very large trains with easy-to-load restraints. And the dreaded pay lockers? Indeed, all the interest of expediting loading of passengers. (yes, you can argue the merit of charging for said lockers, but that's another discussion) Cedar Fair's brightest spot is on its ride operations, which should come as no surprise then on a preference for high capacity roller coasters.

This also means certain roller coaster offerings, such as Eurofighters, simply don't appear to register on the park's radar out of concern for rider numbers.

2. B&M has been a steady Cedar Fair supplier for 7 years - Since the debut of Behemoth in 2008, B&M has built 7 other roller coasters for Cedar Fair; the most of any other roller coaster provider for the park chain. It turns out Cedar Fair has found a lot of need for filling roller coaster lineup gaps, such as 200+ roller coasters.

3. Cedar Fair really doesn't like Intamin - Ever since the debacle of Shoot the Rapids, which still is not able to fully operate, Cedar Fair has been pretty well documented at having zero interest in future Intamin projects at this time. Again - B&M has been very busy filling in large steel coasters also offered by Intamin. Yet the technical and design shortfalls of Intamin across Shoot the Rapids, Intimidator 305, Top Thrill Dragster, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister, etc. seem to have simply been a deal breaker, or at last, a mantle that the new Matt Ouimet regime simply does not wish the carry...

4. No More Dick Kinzel, No More Risks - This could be purely anecdotal due to Matt Ouimet still being early into helming the Cedar Fair ship, but the park chain was indeed innovative and pushed the envelope... with another CEO. MF and TTD were both risky investments, Kinzel even expressed later regret on TTD - but ones that certainly paid off in popularity, ridership, etc. That all being said, Fury's entire design process would have occurred under Ouimet's care.

Rather, the design ethos of Cedar Fair has seemed to turn more to "sense of place", something I was able to talk more in-depth with Rob Decker, Cedar Fair VP of Planning and Design, during Gatekeeper's opening.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimGo74uKCA[/youtube]​

Having laid all of this out, I'd anticipate Valravn to make it's mark similar to that of Mantis/Rougarou. It is a novelty at the end of the day, yet one that simply will not be as popular as inverts, gigas, etc. Given the ride's immediate proximity to the main park entrance, I would anticipate ridership to register in at #4, right behind Raptor.
 
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Thanks Hyde!

The throughput stats I'd dismiss though... The number one deciding factor for most guests when walking around a park is queue length, and most people simply won't get in line for anything long. And they do it to extremes. I've worked in a small park with limited ride selection and witnessed people not ride anything all day because the queues are too long. Those stats are how many people physically could ride, so the best people eaters and longest operating hours will win by default. It has nothing to do with actual popularity, unless measured on very quiet days only.

For all my criticism of CP, I'm being unfair in a big way. I complain endlessly about Merlin's capacity issues, about their neglect to even consider it when designing new attractions. The most important questions to ask are who is this new attraction going, how many people do we need to accommodate, how much money have we got and what space can we play with. Most parks neglect the first two points to shocking extremes, though it would seem Cedar Point really care about the throughput. That's evident from their operations, let alone hardware choices.

What I don't get is not so much the lack of non B&Ms, its the lack of exciting ones. The fact that there are so few Fury's is a question without answers. What leads to the design of some great great over something mediocre? In Valravn's case, the dive machine is a gimmick that hasn't evolved, maybe because it can't... But I'm not sure I believe that.

I just don't get what the ride is offering - its not a substantial lengthy unbroken experience like Raptor, but its not the punchy gimmick that is TTD. I've ridden Griffon a lot, and its such a dull lifeless thing that then repeats itself identically a second time. I do not get dive machines at all, and Griffons perpetually nonexistent queue, even on a busy day, is a fun fact to point ouuut.
 
The fact that TTD is so far down that ridership list just shows how **** annoying this park is.

Also not all the large Dive Machines are Sheikra and Griffon clones - Chimelong's is unique and the new one will be too. So really there's a Sheikra clone and that's it. So don't call them all Sheikra and Griffon clones. Griffon hasn't even been cloned!

This will be a great, solid ride. It might not be a number one but it's a **** huge Dive Machine, come on.
 
Come on Ben you pedantic fart, what Hyde meant is they are all the same layout in essence. They all do the same damn thing. They all drop and do an immelman. Drop and immelman. Drop and immelman.

They're basically clones. The lot of them.
 
Even if they were all clones (they aren't) there's TWO more large DMs other than Griffon and Sheikra. And they're spread out across the World.

That's not 'the lot of them' - you're making a point that they're repetitive when they're not. I'm not being pedantic, just correct. If someone points out something in an argument that is false it's not pedantry, it's correctness.
 
I know you like to keep reminding everyone you've been to Asia, but no one claimed there weren't others bar the Busch divers. People talk about those because more people have been on those as a point of reference. They are all VERY VERY similar, more similar than inverts are, more similar than even mega coasters are. Whether the Asian ones are better or not is irrelevent, they all do the same thing. They drop and immel. Hyde's use of the word "clone" is technically wrong, but from the context it's obvious that we're talking loosely and pointing out every time someone doesn't mention an Asian coaster is not noting when they're wrong, and it's a pattern on the forums. When someone IS wrong, like I was in the Mack spinner topic, that's great - educate, elaborate, contribute... Instead of being cryptic and expecting everyone to know what you're on about. But in this context, I think it's fairly obvious what was meant.
 
Please point out the part where I've said the Asian versions are better. I've not even mentioned that I've been on them and I knew there was differences before I even rode them.

But that's fine ignore my point about there being few enough of them spread out across enough of the world to make the argument of 'omg they're like the same' moot anyway.

How dare parks make good, solid business investments when you want something else.
 
Sorry Ben, it just comes across that way - as a derailment from discussion, because the point seems irrelevant to me. They are very, very similar, the fact there's some not identical but so damn close they may as well be doesn't change what I'm saying about Valravn being boring - because the boredom doesn't stem from there being so many that are near identical in ride experience, it comes from the fact (opinion?) that ride experience isn't very exciting. When Sheikra was announced, everyone was excited because we all collectively sort of wanted more from Oblivion... But when we rode it, most people agreed the bonus content wasn't very interesting. It doesn't just distract from the drop, its not just that without a tunnel the drop feels less intense either physically or mentally, it's that the immelmans aren't exciting. Fun, maybe, smooth and flowy, yes, and that doesn't mean bad... All I've ever said is that its unexciting and that I feel the public would rather have an exciting ride.

Which is why your final comment just misses the point completely - I'd rather have more Mavericks, yes, but I wouldn't rather have more Eurofighters, yet I still think they are more exciting ride experiences than the B&M divers, and more appropriate for most parks. Capacity is really the only legitimate issue.

What I don't get is why CP wanted a dive machine. Elsewhere, their appeal is in scale. Elsewhere, their vertical plummet a gimmick. CP has bigger, it has steep, it has imposing, it has flowy. Valravn adds nothing to CP, not only because it has no selling point, but because it won't be an exciting experience for CPs guests. I don't believe it is a solid investment, I believe its misguided in a lot of ways, lacking anything to draw guests in with marketing and lacking a memorable ride experience for those who ride it. Its just another coaster, just another forgettable ride in CP's ocean of them. That's their gimmick - having the most of any proper resort park, and people will continue to come for that reason, but not for Valravn.
 
Joey said:
What I don't get is why CP wanted a dive machine. Elsewhere, their appeal is in scale. Elsewhere, their vertical plummet a gimmick. CP has bigger, it has steep, it has imposing, it has flowy. Valravn adds nothing to CP, not only because it has no selling point, but because it won't be an exciting experience for CPs guests. I don't believe it is a solid investment, I believe its misguided in a lot of ways, lacking anything to draw guests in with marketing and lacking a memorable ride experience for those who ride it. Its just another coaster, just another forgettable ride in CP's ocean of them. That's their gimmick - having the most of any proper resort park, and people will continue to come for that reason, but not for Valravn.
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Exactly! I've said it several pages ago; but Valravn won't offer anything new to the CP lineup. They already got taller vertical drop coasters, why would the visitors bother with this? The ride experience (apart from the drop) will also be similar to that of a B&M wing coaster or floorless, which just happen to be the two latest installments in the park! :shock: I think adding Valravn is a daft decision both from a personal enthusiast perspective and from a business perspective.

If CP wanted something big and expensive, that truly was exciting and unique they could've bought an S&S 4D. There's currently only one in the opposite corner of the country, which could easily be broken in stats. If CP wanted something less expensive and more reliable but almost as impressive they could've gone the RMC route. Either by letting Mean Streak get the iron horse treatment, which would be the biggest hybrid coaster in the world, or by building a new topper track woodie ground up (which coud also be made the biggest in the world if they wanted). Finally; if CP desperately wanted something from B&M a flyer would probably be the best choice! CP already have loads of B&M coasters, and they're renowned for riding similar. A flyer is probably the only ride from the B&M catalouge that would separate enough from existing rides in the park in terms of marketability and ride experince.

Will Valravn get a huge rider number though? Probably yes, because of the reasons Joey stated. It's a big ride, close to the entrance and since it'll have shorter queue due to higher capacity will also get a high ridership. That doesn't stop CP visitors from rather wanting to go on TTD, Maverick and Millenium Force though. From a short business perspective I can therefore completely understand CP. But in the long run their product need to be updated with new exciting rides to keep up the interest in the park and make people wanting to do repeated visits to the park. And to do that you don't want to add coasters that rides the same year after year.

That's my two cents to the discussion!
 
Cedar Point is not acting out of desperation however - last year was a good year for attendance and financials, and with prospectively low gasoline prices through the next few years, the recipe is there for cheap travel to our respective regional amusement parks.

And let us also not forget - there are only two B&M dive machines in the U.S., located well outside Cedar Point's territory. While this dive machine is nothing new to enthusiasts, it is new to regular park goers. While there are indeed other vertical drops to be found in the park, those are not the main aspects of respective attractions. (i.e. TTD is an Accelerator, Maverick is a Launched "terra" coaster, Wick Twister is an Impulse, etc.) And standing at 223 ft. in height, Valravn will be just outside the top 10 tallest roller coasters, and the 3rd tallest coaster in the park.

On the notion of competition against TTD, MF, Maverick, and others; Valravn is not meant to unseat park favorites - no single ride is ever meant to at any amusement park. Rather, the interest is in adding quantity - that is after all why many enjoy going to parks with more roller coasters than less!

Ben, you are also correct, I did misspeak. What I was more alluding to, as Joey pointed out, is that large Dive Machine layouts have been relatively constant since the creation of Sheikra - or at least haven't seen the same pace of evolution as Inverts, Stand-Ups, or Floorless.

___________________________________

On a separate note, Cedar Point has begun work to place the top track on Valravn!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CoasterForce/status/679366001645981696[/tweet]

A rundown of how this will be achieved can be found on CP's Blog: https://www.cedarpoint.com/blog-article ... vn-Topping

Tony Clark said:
First, crews will lift a massive steel column and set it into place. This column will support the turn that goes into the holding brake just before you dive 214 feet to the ground. But the turn won't be installed immediately.

Once that's set, a crane will lift the highest piece, the top of the lift hill, which is made up of two pieces of track put together, up to its height of 223 feet.

They'll bolt that piece to the existing lift hill and a crane will hold it there temporarily.

Then, another crane will lift the turn section up, set it on top of the column that was already installed, then bolt it to the tippy-top piece that was held there by the other crane.

Basic concept is, we have to build "backwards" to create support for the top of the lift, since that piece has no support below it.
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