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Cedar Point | "GateKeeper" | B&M Wingrider

furie

SBOPD
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I think it's quite a tough choice, but I also don't think any park says "build me a mediocre ride" or "build me a safe low maintenance ride", or "build me an intense ride" - they say "build me a ride".

Look at the Six Flags Intamin rides. You have the fantastic Bizarro and Goliath (in Holland, built by Six Flags) - yet the dire Superman at Six Flags America. Did Six Flags say "we'll have three of your Hypers, but make two of them really intense and fantastic, but the other one dull and easier on the maintenance schedule - we don't want it to cost too much and over shadow Superman at SFNE!"? No - the ride just turned out a turd, because sometimes they do.

Ride creation isn't an exact science. The manufacturers and designers are limited by their own technology, the land area the park has reserved, budgets and any environmental factors they must take into consideration.

If Maverick was to have been built in a parking lot of infinite size, it would have turned out a very different beast (perhaps more like the underwhelming Cheetah Hunt). Limitations can make or break a coaster. I've also said it before, but there isn't a single person on earth who would ride Baco and say "that kind of ride is a good investment for my park". Yes, the ride is intense, but it's also deeply unpleasant for most riders. It's not a ride type a park would take a risk on - if they did, they WOULD say "make it much less intense" and then you'd end up with a Ride of Steel version of Baco - just as neutered as the wing riders are in terms of intensity. The proof of this lies quite simply in the B&M Wing Rider order book compared to Intamin's.

On top of that... The wing riders aren't strong coasters, but that's not the point of them, there's more to a coaster than just hammering you with the most extreme forces ever. Like the flying coasters, they're at their best when they're NOT intense (IMO). They're incredibly popular ride types (for riders), they CAN be intense, but most of all - they fit the needs of the parks in the best way they can.

GateKeeper looks superb. It's a wonderful aesthetic and it gets you excited for the park and rides. It's like viewing PMBO from the motorway leading into Blackpool, or Silver Star on the roads to Rust - you see this fantastic, huge, iconic structure sitting there and your pulse starts to race. It would be great if every ride could be hugely intense, but what about people who want to just enjoy a ride?

I love The Swarm because "it's fun". I don't think it's a great coaster, but I really enjoy the ride. I want to ride it every time I go to Thorpe and would re-ride it happily time and again in a day. It's not as intense as Inferno, but I don't care. I love Inferno too, but I don't just want that constant intensity all day long. I love the buzz, but I also want enjoyment. The B&M Wing Riders give you that. It's a fun thrill that you can just really enjoy.

I agree that CP is full of mediocre coasters... but IT'S FULL OF MEDIOCRE COASTERS! Like, properly chock full of them. They have a superb breadth of experiences in the line up and Hyde is right, GateKeeper compliments that line up and adds a superb new aesthetic to the park - AND it is also a full of biggests :)
 

fefa

Member
Re: Cedar Point |

Joey said:
I feel like I'm one of very few people who think this looks awesome?

I like the wing rider concept and have since Baco. I think it is different enough from inverts, sit downs and floorless B&Ms to be its own interesting thing, without the need to be a breakthrough in layout design. Before I rode Wild Eagle, I didn't understand it, but post riding I felt it was so much more than a generic sit down. They produce weird forces that you simply won't find on other rides - the closest is Sheikra, but even Griffon lacks it.

I kind of disagree with Smithy though... See, whilst I like Swarm, I don't think the public give a toss. And that begs the question, why do parks spend so much money on smooth, dull B&Ms? I just don't know. Yes, they're reliable, but why don't parks ever say "its got to be intense".

With CP, this isn't so relevant, as that park seems to go out of its way to make even Intense ride types tame... But why? WHY?

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Youre not the only one. I LOVE wingriders and the fact that they are rather slowish - because that gives you a whole new ride experience when youre hanging in youre restraints due to hangtime. I have only been on The Swarm but loved it! I really think its a good ride and GateKeeper looks stunning!
 

Screaming Coasters

Well-Known Member
Smithy said:
Screaming Coasters said:
B&M can clearly do it. They've proved it to us in the 90's, so I don't buy what you just said at all.

That's because you don't understand it.

tks didn't say they can't do.

He said that they won't, as they have no reason to.

Nope, you both compared it to technicalities of both B&M and Intamin. I just stated loosely about its intensity and matched it to Baco.

I'm with Joey on this one!
 

Youngster Joey

Well-Known Member
furie said:
Look at the Six Flags Intamin rides. You have the fantastic Bizarro and Goliath (in Holland, built by Six Flags) - yet the dire Superman at Six Flags America. Did Six Flags say "we'll have three of your Hypers, but make two of them really intense and fantastic, but the other one dull and easier on the maintenance schedule - we don't want it to cost too much and over shadow Superman at SFNE!"? No - the ride just turned out a turd, because sometimes they do.

Totally ignoring your point, but there are 4 and Two are fantastic and 2 are crap. Don't forget about -six flags- Darien Lake...

Back on topic:

It looks good.

From the park perspective though The point has been made.
 

Joey

Well-Known Member
Re: Cedar Point |

Hyde244 said:
An amusement park's ideal roller coaster brings a unique, one-of-a-kind thrill with low maintenance costs, keeping overall capital costs down.
Yup, Intamin are incompetent... So why do parks keep going to them?

Why did Maverick have its barrel roll removed? It was because it was too intense... for the train. Cedar Point would have been forced to go through more wheel repairs than they do at present. We also see this with wheel misters on I305 and now MF, to cool off the wheels from very hot runs (And let's not forget the track reprofiling that was done on I305 as well).
I believe you're wrong here. It's not enthusiasts who want an extreme ride, its the public. The problem is that your idea of "intense" as an enthusiast isn't what the public associate with intensity.

There is also a concern for rider comfort. Of course enthusiasts are going to scream for the most intense roller coasters in the world, but what about the average park goer?
Again, you've got this back to front. The kind of thing guests complain about being uncomfortable is a wild mouse, not headbanging on a legitimately rough over the shoulder.

Cedar Point doesn't need a Hail Mary roller coaster that is the biggest, fastest, most intense in the land (yet they built the tallest, fastest wing rider with the world's tallest inversion ;) ), they just need something that will add additional complement to one of the world's best amusement parks.
What?!

No.

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furie

SBOPD
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Fixed your post Joey - it was broken. Though why when you and Erol clearly ignored my post I don't know :p

Youngster Joey said:
Totally ignoring your point

Don't feel bad, the people I was responding to did as well ;) :lol:

Screaming Coasters said:
Smithy said:
Screaming Coasters said:
B&M can clearly do it. They've proved it to us in the 90's, so I don't buy what you just said at all.

That's because you don't understand it.

tks didn't say they can't do.

He said that they won't, as they have no reason to.

Nope, you both compared it to technicalities of both B&M and Intamin. I just stated loosely about its intensity and matched it to Baco.

I'm with Joey on this one!

Read my post, I expand on what tks was saying. Tomahawk was spot on with what he was saying, and so was tks for for defending his post. If Intamin were to make another Wing coaster, it's likely to have problems again (look at Skyrush their evolution of the concept). Incredible intensity, horrible problems. Though as I said in my post, "how much is that down to the particulars of the project, rather than the manufacturer?" Intamin can produce utter bobbins rides from the same series of coasters as some of the world's best. So just because one or two of their rides of one type are intense, doesn't mean that all will be.

Youngster Joey said:
, but there are 4 and Two are fantastic and 2 are crap. Don't forget about -six flags- Darien Lake...

I didn't know about Darien Lake, it's a park which is completely off my radar :lol: Point remains though if just one of the installations is a complete turd :lol:

Thanks though, genuinely, we can't all know everything and it IS appreciated when mistake are pulled up and pointed out - it's the only way to learn :)

Sadly, I'm old and feeble minded and won't remember Darien Lake exists by the time I come around to making a post that requires me to post anything where it may have relevance :lol:
 

Hyde

I Lied About My Age!
Staff member
Moderator
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Re: Cedar Point |

Joey said:
Why did Maverick have its barrel roll removed? It was because it was too intense... for the train. Cedar Point would have been forced to go through more wheel repairs than they do at present. We also see this with wheel misters on I305 and now MF, to cool off the wheels from very hot runs (And let's not forget the track reprofiling that was done on I305 as well).
I believe you're wrong here. It's not enthusiasts who want an extreme ride, its the public. The problem is that your idea of "intense" as an enthusiast isn't what the public associate with intensity.
Of course the public wants extreme rides, but enthusiasts have more information and experience on what makes an intense, good roller coaster. This leads to different perspectives; while the public might believe a local 200 ft. roller coaster to be the most intense ride in the world, say Mamba at Worlds of Fun, enthusiasts have the knowledge of other roller coasters around the world that average park goers do not. I believe we can all agree that Skyrush or I305 are better than a Morgan Hyper.

Joey said:
There is also a concern for rider comfort. Of course enthusiasts are going to scream for the most intense roller coasters in the world, but what about the average park goer?
Again, you've got this back to front. The kind of thing guests complain about being uncomfortable is a wild mouse, not headbanging on a legitimately rough over the shoulder.
Really? You don't think visitors complain about rough wooden coasters or head banging steel coasters?

There are droves of visitors at Cedar Point alone who can attest to a certain nut-busting sensation on Mantis.

Joey said:
Cedar Point doesn't need a Hail Mary roller coaster that is the biggest, fastest, most intense in the land (yet they built the tallest, fastest wing rider with the world's tallest inversion ;) ), they just need something that will add additional complement to one of the world's best amusement parks.
What?!

No.
It's hard to find an amusement park with as much heritage AND such a large attraction line up. I don't think it is irrational to consider Cedar Point one of the best.
 

Hyde

I Lied About My Age!
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
So where do you folks have GateKeeper in your lineup?

After consideration, I have it sizing up at 17.
 

Joey

Well-Known Member
Re: Cedar Point | "GateKeeper" | B&M Wingrider

Sorry, Phil, my phone won't let me quote properly and I can't remember what I'm replying to...

Hyde, your comment about Mantis proves my point.

Guests "complain" about nut-crushing, or laterals and harsh breaks, or restraints being too tight... But they don't about roughness. Ever. Because, I assume, they think it's intensity and part of the ride. People get off wild mice and say they are "rough".

And, I don't understand your Morgan hyper comment, because its similar to my point. Average guests do not understand intensity to mean what we do. Perceived intensity also effects them differently, because they will assume height and speed = extreme, where we will assume based on height difference and transition. Both can be wrong, or right. For a park, a cheaper rougher ride will actually be the majority of guests idea of an awesome ride post riding. A giant ride will prior to riding.

B&M are the only company who make giant multi loopers... That's probably one of the reasons parks go to them, along with maintaining costs, reliability and throughput.

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Intricks

Well-Known Member
Re: Cedar Point | "GateKeeper" | B&M Wingrider

It is somewhere floating below my Top 10, but above my top 25.
 
Hyde244 said:
So where do you folks have GateKeeper in your lineup?

After consideration, I have it sizing up at 17.

It would be around my 20. Wild Eagle is my only comparison, at 25-ish, because it's a snore.
This DOES look better though.
 

Nick P

Member
Can't wait to see the night pictures for this ride. Even though I haven't ridden it yet, it looks like it would easily make my top 15. Keep in mind I only have around 40 creds.
 

Joey

Well-Known Member
furie said:
I think it's quite a tough choice, but I also don't think any park says "build me a mediocre ride" or "build me a safe low maintenance ride", or "build me an intense ride" - they say "build me a ride".

Look at the Six Flags Intamin rides. You have the fantastic Bizarro and Goliath (in Holland, built by Six Flags) - yet the dire Superman at Six Flags America. Did Six Flags say "we'll have three of your Hypers, but make two of them really intense and fantastic, but the other one dull and easier on the maintenance schedule - we don't want it to cost too much and over shadow Superman at SFNE!"? No - the ride just turned out a turd, because sometimes they do.
One would hope they ask for a ride to fit a particular audience with certain features, and those constraints are what ultimately determine whether the ride is allowed the freedom to be good. For example, if you look at I305, the park clearly wanted a 300footer but clearly lacked the space for something like Millenium Force. So what they end up with is a layout suitable for a 150-200ft coaster with a 300ft first drop.

Why did Six Flags even bother getting different layouts for the Intamin hypers? It's not as if they are all different, or that any of them are close enough for it to be a problem if they were all the same. Why bother? Presumably it costs less to buy more of the same layout?

If Maverick was to have been built in a parking lot of infinite size, it would have turned out a very different beast (perhaps more like the underwhelming Cheetah Hunt). Limitations can make or break a coaster. I've also said it before, but there isn't a single person on earth who would ride Baco and say "that kind of ride is a good investment for my park". Yes, the ride is intense, but it's also deeply unpleasant for most riders. It's not a ride type a park would take a risk on - if they did, they WOULD say "make it much less intense" and then you'd end up with a Ride of Steel version of Baco - just as neutered as the wing riders are in terms of intensity. The proof of this lies quite simply in the B&M Wing Rider order book compared to Intamin's.
I disagree here, it's not intensity that's the problem. The only rides in the world where intensity is a problem are those like I305, that cause physical problems riders cannot ignore, like "blacking out" - or rather, some visual phenomena like loss of vision, blurry spots, etc. I305 doesn't FEEL particularly intense, it's not until your vision begins to distort that you even notice the increasing pressure because it is gained over such a long period. Bouts of extreme intensity, like exiting Nemesis' helix, are far more intense and exciting but because they don't cause any "problems" they are perceived as fun by everyone, enthusiasts and normal folk alike.

Baco is intense, but not ridiculously so... The problem is that it's rough. Now, I liked Baco quite a lot, and I'd vouch that the public probably do too, because it provides that experience guests associate with intensity - roughness. The reason I liked Baco was that beneath the roughness was a really unique ride and an incredible clash with the, I thought, overrated Khan. Why didn't the Intamin wing rider take off? I don't know. I honestly think it's more a weird fluke than a fact of it's perceived ****. The public sure seemed to like it when I was there.

On top of that... The wing riders aren't strong coasters, but that's not the point of them, there's more to a coaster than just hammering you with the most extreme forces ever. Like the flying coasters, they're at their best when they're NOT intense (IMO). They're incredibly popular ride types (for riders), they CAN be intense, but most of all - they fit the needs of the parks in the best way they can.
I agree here, but the public are oblivious. People love Air, by majority, because of it's unique ride positioning... Not it's lack of intensity. If you put it and Superman side by side, I have no doubt which people would prefer, and it would not be Air.

This isn't to say that ride design goes over the majority of guests heads completely... It's that some things go over their heads. I think, for example, Colossus' final twist is a great example of good design that will effect riders. Or how Nemesis feels like it increases speed throughout the layout and finishes fairly dramatically. These things are important, things that CP completely ignores with it's designs, but the sheer scale of the rides "makes up for it".
 
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