B&M's current MCBR positioning

[rtotheizzo17]

^^ Thank you hyde for the turnstile info. And I agree, the theoretical should never be exceeded because that's what a theoretical capacity is, the max capacity under perfect conditions.

^ That is what I was hinting at. Keeping track of counts by turnstile is like tracking your weight by looking in the mirror. Between people jumping the turnstile, spinning the turnstile, attendants writing down wrong number, not checking in every 60 minutes exactly...well you get the point. You are probably in the ball park but not real accurate.

I usually take whatever the manufacturer theoretical is and times it by .8 to get a more realistic goal, but depending on a plethora of factors would not argue reducing it by 33%. Even assuming 1,710 is right for GateKeeper, that's like 53 dispatches an hour, full trains. With how slow the process is to get on and off those rides I just cant see that being realistic.

 

[bmac]

With 53 dispatches an hour you're expecting one train to leave the station in a little over a minute. Considering you have to get guests off the train, new riders on, check the train, and then dispatch it the employees should be earning medals if they could dispatch a train that fast under a normal cycle without anything wrong. Considering you also have slow guests, loose articles, and the moms that just have to take a picture of their kids getting on the ride, expecting to get anything close to the theoretical capacity is just not going to happen any time soon.

^ That is what I was hinting at. Keeping track of counts by turnstile is like tracking your weight by looking in the mirror. Between people jumping the turnstile, spinning the turnstile, attendants writing down wrong number, not checking in every 60 minutes exactly...well you get the point. You are probably in the ball park but not real accurate.

Going off of gate clicks definitely is not accurate. Bizarro's station has two turnstiles for Flash Pass and Normal entry. We don't have any for riders with medical issues (wheelchairs, casts, etc.) so they are not added to our numbers when the turnstiles are working. So we could have say 950 people come through the normal turnstile, 150 through the flash pass, and we'd have to register 1100 people that hour even though we dispatched 37 trains in an hour with 32 riders on every one because we don't count people coming up through the exit gate. We actually counted them for an hour using a clicker because one of the turnstiles broke and we actually exceeded our target capacity thanks to riders coming up through the exit.

 

[andrus]

While El Toro only has 2 trains with 36 riders per train, its cycle time takes 3 minutes 20 seconds and its target capacity is 1080 people per hour. Theoretical capacity says 1500 people per hour but that is literally impossible due to the cable lift system.

So why does Intamin insit in using cable lift systems then? I mean the cable lift certainly does not enhance the ride experience on El Toro? You do not gain any airtime (since it slows down at the top) and it does not enhance the excitement (if anything, a slower chain lift would buil up more excitement).

That also leads me to another question: can a chain lift be used as a block break? I know that it could theoretically, but is it being effectively used as one on contemporary coasters?

And a final question: does anybody know which coaster has the best capacity? My guess would be on a B&M dive machine, they really eat up the crowds (even Krake does)! But someone might know for sure?

 

[Hyde]

^ That is what I was hinting at. Keeping track of counts by turnstile is like tracking your weight by looking in the mirror. Between people jumping the turnstile, spinning the turnstile, attendants writing down wrong number, not checking in every 60 minutes exactly...well you get the point. You are probably in the ball park but not real accurate.

I usually take whatever the manufacturer theoretical is and times it by .8 to get a more realistic goal, but depending on a plethora of factors would not argue reducing it by 33%. Even assuming 1,710 is right for GateKeeper, that's like 53 dispatches an hour, full trains. With how slow the process is to get on and off those rides I just cant see that being realistic.

To expand a little more on the turnstile count, the turnstile count that matters is the one headed directly into the station, not one potentially at the start of the queue. Yes there will be an over/under depending on folks not riding, but it gives a fair estimation.

As for actually hitting the mark, it can indeed be done. However, it would require full operation and minor lags in operation than can sometimes be experienced in real life. Realizing however that all roller coasters face this reality, it makes it a moot point to argue theoretic versus real rph - some roller coasters are simply able to average a larger rph than others.

 

[bmac]

So why does Intamin insit in using cable lift systems then? I mean the cable lift certainly does not enhance the ride experience on El Toro? You do not gain any airtime (since it slows down at the top) and it does not enhance the excitement (if anything, a slower chain lift would buil up more excitement).

I don't know, that would be something you'd have to ask Intamin themselves.

That also leads me to another question: can a chain lift be used as a block break? I know that it could theoretically, but is it being effectively used as one on contemporary coasters?

Yes any lift hill is considered a block, whether it's cable or chain. The issue with having a train stop on the lift hill is that the computers systems are programmed to stop the lift and need to be manually reset. It's the same with MCBRs, too. This is why you almost never see any trains stop on lift hills or MCBRs, they're only really there for safety incase the ride breaks down or the E-Stop is pressed.

And a final question: does anybody know which coaster has the best capacity? My guess would be on a B&M dive machine, they really eat up the crowds (even Krake does)! But someone might know for sure?

B&M Dive Machines are among the highest capacity coasters in operation today, but the actual highest capacity currently belongs to the B&M hypers (sans seatbelts). Apollo's Chariot currently holds the highest reported hourly capacity, but I can't find the exact number on Guiness World Record's site (or anywhere for that matter).

 

[rtotheizzo17]

It wouldnt surprise me if a Disney coaster was in competition for best capacity, specifically big thunder.

Hulk routinley kills 50 dispatches an hour. I believe their "perfect" hour is 55 but its been a while since I needed to know (or cared).

Like bmac said usually the less complicated the loading the higher the capacity, so b&m hypers are usually cream of the crop. Dives could be great but the floorless aspect slows it down. They are still monsters.

 

[D1993]

^ There theoretical is listed at 1,710 (which I would find hard to believe considering the slow loading process of wing riders). I would find it very hard to believe that Gatekeeper is hitting 1,800.

My guess is the Point uses a turnstile count that you check every hour?

Slow? Gatekeeper?
It's quite the opposite. It is all about the parks operations policies and the way in which the ride hosts handle it.
I was apart of the gatekeeper inaugural crew, and quite frequently when we really hauled ass, we would have 1800 hours. This was not a one time thing either, it happened many times over many different days when we were really pushing to move fast.
When I first saw the number I thought it couldn't be right either (with the theoretical capacity being 1710).
I double checked the dispatch records and we had sent 58 trains the past hour. It's very difficult to do, but we were dispatching train when the one ahead hadn't even cleared the immelman for the full hour.
So 58 x 32 = 1856.
Factor in that not every single seat is filled (single riders etc), then you are looking at a solid 1800 hour.
It's absolutely phenomenal and a pleasure to witness when gatekeeper is operated like this.

Raptor definitely also has 1600 hours when the crew really moves.
3 train B&M's are all capable of achieving high capacities like this, regardless what is said about the theoretical capacity.

 

[D1993]

With 53 dispatches an hour you're expecting one train to leave the station in a little over a minute. Considering you have to get guests off the train, new riders on, check the train, and then dispatch it the employees should be earning medals if they could dispatch a train that fast under a normal cycle without anything wrong. Considering you also have slow guests, loose articles, and the moms that just have to take a picture of their kids getting on the ride, expecting to get anything close to the theoretical capacity is just not going to happen any time soon.

Actually, we had 35 seconds to dispatch trains, and we did it all the time. It was amazing
The only way it is possible is when 6 people are checking the train.

Also, sorry for the double post.

 

[tribar]

Re: B&M's current MCBR positioning

While El Toro only has 2 trains with 36 riders per train, its cycle time takes 3 minutes 20 seconds and its target capacity is 1080 people per hour. Theoretical capacity says 1500 people per hour but that is literally impossible due to the cable lift system.

So why does Intamin insit in using cable lift systems then? I mean the cable lift certainly does not enhance the ride experience on El Toro? You do not gain any airtime (since it slows down at the top) and it does not enhance the excitement (if anything, a slower chain lift would buil up more excitement).

That also leads me to another question: can a chain lift be used as a block break? I know that it could theoretically, but is it being effectively used as one on contemporary coasters?

And a final question: does anybody know which coaster has the best capacity? My guess would be on a B&M dive machine, they really eat up the crowds (even Krake does)! But someone might know for sure?

Wouldn't Dragon Challenge be the highest? It has 6 trains that can fit 32 each.

 

[bmac]

Actually, we had 35 seconds to dispatch trains, and we did it all the time. It was amazing
The only way it is possible is when 6 people are checking the train.

Also, sorry for the double post.

That explains tons, when there's less of a burden and more of a train covered at once the trains can get dispatched stupidly fast. It's my first year checking trains and right now we haven't had more than 4 people in the station (2 checking, 1 grouping, 1 opping) and so far my best is about 1250 on Bizarro. El Toro hasn't come close to max capacity but my supervisor swears up and down that they'll be busting 30+'s 6 hours straight Memorial Day Weekend.

 

[D1993]

^yeah exactly!
Staffing is a huge thing. When we were extremely understaffed a few times at the end of the year we had 4 people checking the train (2 on each side), and it just did not work. You need 3 on each side plus the entrance, crowd control, controls operator etc etc. At gatekeeper, at least.
If you had 4 people checking seats at Bizarro, you would be able to move so much faster, and it would be so much more fun!
I'm guessing interval at Bizarro is around the bottom of the first drop/going into the loop, and if trains were continuously dispatched at that time I wouldn't be surprised if you had 1600 hours. Bless B&M and their high capacity rides, they are SO much fun to work at.
Well, with El Toro it's only 2 trains and it's a decent ride time so there is only so much you can do. The only reason it's stiff difficult to achieve good hours is because with 2 people checking the train it takes longer for trains to be dispatched and more stacking occurs.
It's all about staffing and the importance the park places upon efficiency and operations.
Take diamondback for example. It has a monster capacity, yet Kings Island operations are not the best and there was a lot of stacking going on there.

Also, with the question about what ride has the highest capacity do you mean b&m's, or any coasters in general?
I would say revenge of the mummy, expedition Everest and Gemini back when it had 6 trains.

 

[bmac]

I'm guessing interval at Bizarro is around the bottom of the first drop/going into the loop, and if trains were continuously dispatched at that time I wouldn't be surprised if you had 1600 hours. Bless B&M and their high capacity rides, they are SO much fun to work at.

With two person ops our goals are to be checking the 3rd row by the time the previous train crests the lift, and dispatch it by the time it clears the Zero-G roll. Usually with only 2 people checking the train we dispatch just as the other train is clearing the MCBR. The goal is to keep the trains rolling from dispatch to unload, and not stopping anywhere on the brake runs.

Well, with El Toro it's only 2 trains and it's a decent ride time so there is only so much you can do. The only reason it's stiff difficult to achieve good hours is because with 2 people checking the train it takes longer for trains to be dispatched and more stacking occurs.

Checking El Toro is such a pain in the ass due to the blocking system. There's a specific window we have to dispatch the train without anything going awry. By the time the first train crests the lift we should be getting ready to check the second train, and we should dispatch the second train by the time the first one is in the magnetic brakes before the block so that it can just easily roll into the station with no issue. El Toro is so damn picky about dispatches, because you cannot dispatch a train from the station until the lift carriage is in the 'home' position and you cannot dispatch a train until the other one is at the point where it'll be in the station block segment before the other train reaches the top of the lift. It's a really fine window to consistently dispatch trains where on one end you simply stack the trains every time or you shut the ride down because the block wasn't clear. Moral of the story: Use 4 blocks for a 2 train set-up instead of 3 blocks, it removes all that jazz about not clearing a block.

It's all about staffing and the importance the park places upon efficiency and operations.
Take diamondback for example. It has a monster capacity, yet Kings Island operations are not the best and there was a lot of stacking going on there.

And now that it's running with seatbelts the capacity is even worse. You have a B&M hyper performing at half capacity due to their current ride checking set-up. That's at the point where Volcano performs better, and that thing is lucky to break 900 rph with its new and refined block system.

Also, with the question about what ride has the highest capacity do you mean b&m's, or any coasters in general?
I would say revenge of the mummy, expedition Everest and Gemini back when it had 6 trains.

It wouldn't be any fun if this thread was a B&M capacity circlejerk. Another ride that kinda comes to my mind for capacity is Skull Mountain, which has been one of Great Adventures top 5 coasters in terms of total riders through the course of a year for the last decade.

 

[D1993]

That's a shame there is not much you can do about that from a ride host stand point. If you had 4 people checking the train you could really push to be dispatching trains when the one ahead is going through the vertical loop, especially on those really busy days. Even then, its just plain fun! Bizarro seems to still be a very popular ride, I would be very happy to see six flags management try and increase the amount of staff they assign to rides.

As for El Toro, its funny because all of that reminds me very much of Millennium. It has a very similar issue, where you have to wait a fair amount of time for the catch car to come back down and park in its home position, and you have to wait until the train goes through the bunny hill by the station, otherwise it won't clear the block soon enough and the train will stop at the top of the lift (it makes a wonderful noise though, I don't know if you've ever heard Millennium when it block stops on the lift).

In the case of millennium, it really needs a block brake because running 3 trains doesnt really gain you that much - about 200 riders at best per hour. Its got 3 trains and 4 blocks, when it should have 5.
When you mention El Toro having the same issue it makes me wonder why Intamin didn't make a more efficient ride design?

Ugh and don't get me started on those stupid seat belts they added on diamondback and behemoth. They're inefficient and annoying.

 

[andrus]

Also, with the question about what ride has the highest capacity do you mean b&m's, or any coasters in general?
I would say revenge of the mummy, expedition Everest and Gemini back when it had 6 trains.

It wouldn't be any fun if this thread was a B&M capacity circlejerk. Another ride that kinda comes to my mind for capacity is Skull Mountain, which has been one of Great Adventures top 5 coasters in terms of total riders through the course of a year for the last decade.

I meant any coaster in general. I just took B&M dive machines as an example since I know they have great throughput! At Busch Gardens all attractions were walk on. But at Heide Park Krake only had about half an hour of queue, despite being a new ride, although Colossos had a ~1 hour queue. At My visit to Alton Towers all major rides (Rita, Air and Nemesis) had 1 hour+ queues except Oblivion which was walk on!

Interesting fact about Skull Mountain! It seems like a really simple/small coaster yet it has such a great throughput? And what about Mummy and Everest? I know they're at parks known for their great capacity, but they're both really complex rides with backwards sections etc, how do they manage to get such high throughput?

 

[bmac]

It's the same thing at BGW. While the park could be having a capacity day and if the crews are on top of it, Apollo's and Griffon you are almost always moving through the line. Those things just eat people like nobody's business. Nessie also can achieve some excellent throughput thanks to the fact that there's no seatbelts on the coaster and you just pull down on the harness (or do arm dips like I see tons of people doing every time I visit).

Skull Mountain has a simple lap bar and a layout that is both efficient and fun. When properly staffed it's stupidly easy to roll trains on a constant basis. Six Flags says its capacity is 1,596 people per hour, which is higher than El Toro! Combine that with the fact that it's open in the rain, it's air conditioned, and is fit for basically everyone visiting the park and you have a grand slam on your hands.

D1993, Intamin was kind of forced to block El Toro the way they did due to the space given and how little they had to work with. Where the station is the final brake run also has the transfer track on it, and while in operation the train actually moves into the station a bit so that it doesn't get stuck in the turn from the magnetic fins. You had Rolling Thunder enclosing it from 2 sides, a pathway on a third, there really wasn't much they had to work with, Although I think they could've just used GCI's transfer sliding track like what they have for Lightning Run. Considering Millennium Force has a similar blocking system I'm guessing you have to stop a train on the lift in order to transfer another train on and off?

 

[rtotheizzo17]

^ There theoretical is listed at 1,710 (which I would find hard to believe considering the slow loading process of wing riders). I would find it very hard to believe that Gatekeeper is hitting 1,800.

My guess is the Point uses a turnstile count that you check every hour?

Slow? Gatekeeper?
It's quite the opposite. It is all about the parks operations policies and the way in which the ride hosts handle it.
I was apart of the gatekeeper inaugural crew, and quite frequently when we really hauled ass, we would have 1800 hours. This was not a one time thing either, it happened many times over many different days when we were really pushing to move fast.
When I first saw the number I thought it couldn't be right either (with the theoretical capacity being 1710).
I double checked the dispatch records and we had sent 58 trains the past hour. It's very difficult to do, but we were dispatching train when the one ahead hadn't even cleared the immelman for the full hour.
So 58 x 32 = 1856.
Factor in that not every single seat is filled (single riders etc), then you are looking at a solid 1800 hour.
It's absolutely phenomenal and a pleasure to witness when gatekeeper is operated like this.

Raptor definitely also has 1600 hours when the crew really moves.
3 train B&M's are all capable of achieving high capacities like this, regardless what is said about the theoretical capacity.

So you're telling me that a ride that has to wait for the entire train to unload before it opens its gates can load and 35 seconds? I'm sorry but I'm calling ****. I was there today no train unloaded in faster than 30 seconds and they were all half empty.

Edit: and your saying forget the manufacturer set maximums for rides? Do you even realize how silly that sounds? I get your proud of your work but you are not faster then the statical max the people who created the ride said you can move.

 

[D1993]

If you were there today which is not long after opening weekend then that means everyone is learning the ride and there are a lot of first years still being trained. They are not yet equipped to move the way they should.
I am talking about when all employees were equipped and we pushed the ride to the point of it's highest capacity. I assure you there were numerous times in the year we had 58 dispatches in one hour. Do the math. It matched up very closely with our turnstile readings.

I'm saying from the time the train stops in the station, we have 35 seconds to send it at earliest. Unloading and loading happen at the same time, as soon as the train stops in the station, gates are opened, guests are directed to the back and guests are loaded all at the same time. We didnt wait for everyone to exit the platform. Whether or not crews are operating the ride the same way this year, I'm just pointing out with a very efficient crew when running the ride at it's best you can get 1800+ hours.

But with theoretical capacities, they can be wrong.
Do you know that millenniums theoretical capacity used to be a lot higher? Same for Raptor. A theoretical capacity is just in theory, when it comes to actual action rides sometimes perform faster than expected.
I have talked with the manufacturer worker themselves (Walt), and he described the capacity as the estimated guess of what the ride could achieve. Sometimes they can be wrong.
The best way and most accurate to find out what a rides capacity is, is to work on the ride location with an efficient crew and see how far you can push it.

Like I said, dispatches in the high 50's were not uncommon. It's not like we were tallying it ourselves on our fingers, the system itself tells us how many trains we dispatched per hour.
I understand what you're saying, but you've never seen gatekeeper operate the way I have considering I was working there all season long.

 

[Hobbes]

Re: B&M's current MCBR positioning

Anyone know what Leviathan's capacity (theoretical or actual) is? Given that it has a very long final brake run instead of a MCBR, I'm curious to see how it compares to other B&M hypers that have MCBRs.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[D1993]

I would take a guess at about the 1500-1600 mark.
But that's just an approximate stab in the dark, the only person I would really trust to give me a proper answer is someone who has worked on the ride.

 

[Hyde]

^ Could be around there, though probably less. Behemoth carries the same amount of riders per train as Leviathan (32 riders per train) and has a similar ride duration (Behemoth = 3:10, Leviathan = 3:28). Behemoth reports a 1,545 rph, but Behemoth also has a MCBR unlike Leviathan.

In which case, it could push closer to MF's capacity of 1,300 rph, especially now that Cedar Fair has installed seat belts on their B&M Hypers. MF has a ride duration of 2:20 and a train capacity of 36 riders. As earlier pointed out however, the lack of a MCBR hurts capacity, not to mention a very persnickety restraint system.