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Absolutely DISGRACEFUL human hatred.

Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

So it should just be ignored then??? Anyone would think he was actually IN the video or something.

Like I say, I agree, perhaps CF isn't the place for it but I don't think people should be judging AJ so harshly. The video has been removed now so rather than having a go at him for posting it, perhaps get back to actual discussion?
 
Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

Mark said:
In this instance, I think that what AJ is getting at, is that if the masses worldwide speak out and react in a similar manner it would shame the country perhaps even in to some kind of action? If this video was to go viral on a massive scale it MIGHT make a difference.

It took a couple of million people for one person. To chance the oppinion of that part of africa would be a considerable amount. Applying that to the other parts of that continent is already getting astronomical amount of people. That's just to get them into a monority and make them realise this isn't a rational thing to do. Then you have to mutiply that by the remaining places. That's alot of people...

It's a nice idea and I also understand where you and AJ are coming from but effectivly it'll do very little if **** all.
 
Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

I mean for me personally, the video raised questions?

How on earth has this kind of behaviour been 'allowed' to carry on? I've heard so much stuff lately about governments like our own warning countries that they will lose foreign aid if they don't sort their legislation on similar issues etc.

How can any human being be so vile to another? I mean we are all aware of murderers and the like out there but this is something else, considering the number of people involved and the massive amount of people who just stood by and did nothing! I actually find it hard to get my head around it.
 
Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

OK... wind your neck in a second before you start essaying at me UC :p. Did I not say that I agree the video should not be on CF? All I am saying is that I can appreciate the reasons upon which AJ decided to post.

Granted, I should probably have used another word other than lync but what I was getting at was it seemed the conversation was evolving into basically people having a go at AJ for posting the video. The video has been removed, AJ is aware that it is not appropriate for CF. So we can drop that part of the discussion now.

In terms of ongoing discussion... I did not mention anything about the link to homophobia. As I said in my previous post...

How on earth has this kind of behaviour been 'allowed' to carry on? I've heard so much stuff lately about governments like our own warning countries that they will lose foreign aid if they don't sort their legislation on similar issues etc.

How can any human being be so vile to another? I mean we are all aware of murderers and the like out there but this is something else, considering the number of people involved and the massive amount of people who just stood by and did nothing! I actually find it hard to get my head around it.
 
Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

Just to quote my first post in this topic, to try and manouver the discussion away from what it has been:

Edit because the topic's CHANGED after a load of **** :

Ok, so. I posted a link yesterday evening that caused uproar and a load of **** I cba to deal with because the entire point I was trying to make has been missed.

The video involved a human being beaten and murdered for his sexuality, it wasn't appropriate for CF, so yeah, topic's changed to keep it PG13 <3

SO, instead of bitching and moaning about a video. I'd rather the topic turn into a discussion related to reasons behind such vulgar behaviour by humans, towards other humans.

Why people are so violent towards others based on their race/sexuality/religion/appearance etc.

I'm not trying to solve anything here, purely discuss reasoning behind such awful behaviour, motivations, outcomes etc.


So, let's discuss....
_________________
 
Re: Absolutely DISGRACEFUL homophobia.

Indeed AJ

I find it really to difficult to understand how on earth has this kind of behaviour been 'allowed' to carry on? I've heard so much stuff lately about governments like our own warning countries that they will lose foreign aid if they don't sort their legislation on similar issues etc. I know it is a completely difficult culture and all that but surely this goes beyond culture. I mean, as a human being I can't imagine the mentality that is enstilled that makes people think this ok behaviour?

How can any human being be so vile to another? I mean we are all aware of murderers and the like out there but this is something else, considering the number of people involved and the massive amount of people who just stood by and did nothing! I actually find it hard to get my head around it.
 
I have not seen the video in question and nor do I wish to, but from what people have said, it reminds me of a video I have seen.
In 2007 a young Iraqi girl was stoned to death in public by a mob for reportedly falling in love with man of different religious beliefs, so she changed her religion and was promptly stoned to death by members of the religion she had diverted from.
Its obviously shocking to see, those that are not hitting her are waving mobile phones in her face, like its some sort of trophy moment.
 
People are scared of change or concepts which appear foreign to their little minds.

Unfortunately it's human nature - intolerance has always been here and always will be. Sorry, AJ!
 
You can't just go "oh, intolerance has always been around, just deal with it" or that lets someone go out, light a cross, and go and lynch a black man.

I hate how homophobia isn't treated with the same total disgust as racism... Double standards <//3
 
Ok, so I watched the video.

I also read a load of the comments.

Quite a lot of the comments claim to be from Nigerian speaking people explaining that this has nothing to do with sexuality.

That's quite interesting really, considering, as far as I can see, the only thing claiming that it's a homophobic attack is the title, and why should we believe that?!

Obviously it doesn't make it any less brutal and disgraceful, but does it make you think any differently?
 
Martyn said:
Ok, so I watched the video.

I also read a load of the comments.

Quite a lot of the comments claim to be from Nigerian speaking people explaining that this has nothing to do with sexuality.

That's quite interesting really, considering, as far as I can see, the only thing claiming that it's a homophobic attack is the title, and why should we believe that?!

Obviously it doesn't make it any less brutal and disgraceful, but does it make you think any differently?
One of my friends pointed this out to me last night. It does mention 'theft' in the comments. I'm not particularly bothered what it's to do with. It's a horrific video that I wish I'd not watched, and for me the motive behind it isn't acceptable. Regardless of what it is.
 
Ben said:
I hate how homophobia isn't treated with the same total disgust as racism... Double standards <//3
I hate that as much as you... but I can see the logic as to why this issue exists. Homophobia exists because the "natural" way of things is that humans should procreate, and that requires a man and a woman. Two of the same gender is deemed unnatural by some, and it exists fundamentally in various religions and societies. As for racism, there's no rational reason for it to exist other than "that guy looks a bit different to me." Well, I suppose there's also cultural stereotypes too. It doesn't matter that being homosexual is natural, certain people will still see otherwise.
 
Let me just start by saying I’ve not seen the video, and going by the description I don’t intend to. The description is quite enough for me.

That said, there are really two separate issues here (especially as some people are now apparently claiming that the accused in the video was killed for reasons other than being gay) so I’m going to address them separately: Intolerance/Homophobia and Vigilantism.

furie said:
People who don't fit the "world view" we create as we grow up make us feel uncomfortable. It's only natural. There's a huge difference though between being out of your comfort zone and hatred… what I did was recreate my world view to include the things that made me feel uncomfortable. It's surprisingly easy and you feel much better and freer for doing it

I've never understood homophobia or racism, I just see people, but I was brought up in a very racist and homophobic community. Hence why there's a hurdle to step over.
I think Furie has made a good point about having to overcome hurdles. I’m a straight male, raised as a Catholic (although turned atheist) and raised in what’s essentially a Tory heartland (Richmond is William Hague’s constituency). When you’re surrounded by the mindset of “it’s unnatural and disgusting”, it takes a while to overcome that.

The thing is, to be able to overcome that, you need to broaden your horizons and be exposed to new ideas and counter arguments. Even then, it takes time. For me, there was an intermediate stage where I’d think “each to their own, but to me that’s kinda weird – I just don’t get it”. Having spent time with openly gay people in the last few years, I’ve reached the point where there’s nothing seems odd or unusual about anyone being gay – it seems like the most natural thing in the world these days, and now I can’t understand the logic of anyone who would think differently.

Whilst I know there are people out there who are willfully ignorant, what of those people who were raised in a homophobic (or racist or otherwise intolerant) environment with a hateful/fearful worldview and who are never exposed to anything else? It’s very easy to demonize something you don’t understand, and when everything you know says that a person/practice is abhorrent, it’s unfortunately human nature to accept that without stopping to question.

I was recently reading about an experiment performed with a group of monkeys and a banana tree. Whenever a monkey tried to climb the tree, all of the monkeys in the group would be sprayed with water until the monkey climbed down from the tree. Eventually, when a monkey tried to climb the tree, all the other monkeys would attack it until it stopped trying.

Over time, some of the monkeys in the group were replaced with others that had never been exposed to the water. Of course, these monkeys would try to climb the tree, but would always be attacked before they could climb it, so they’d never get exposed to the water. They in turn learned to attack any monkey that would climb the tree.

Eventually, as the monkeys in the group were replaced, the group reached a point where none of the monkeys had been exposed to water. New entrants to the group quickly learned that not only do you never climb the tree, you also batter any other monkey that tries to do so without really knowing why.

For all the human advances in philosophy and rational thinking over the years, we’re all still primates at heart.

There’s a difference between ignorance and willful ignorance. Some people will adapt when they’re presented with new ideas and evidence, and only hold these viewpoints because they don’t know any better. Education can fix that, but takes time and only works if people are open minded. Unfortunately, many of these African countries are still staunchly Christian, and therefore have deep rooted Christian prejudices against homosexuality. You’ve got to overcome the deep rooted closed mindedness first.

Now onto the second issue of vigilantism. Vigilantism is a symptom of a problem, namely a breakdown in the rule of law. When the system is so corrupt and law enforcement isn’t dealing with those who go against the perceived rules of the system, people perceive their only choice as being either to suffer at the hands of the criminal and/or corrupt or to take matters into their own hands. Meanwhile, for the corrupt and the criminal, the question becomes not “is it ethical” or even “is it legal”, but “can I get away with it?”.

We’ve seem this even in the “civilized” world in recent years with internet groups such as Anonymous. They’ve seen large corporate organizations such as the Church of Scientology or Sony which are being at best unethical and at worst breaking the law and getting away with it. Law enforcement does nothing, the organizations in question hide behind and are protected by the legal system, so ordinary people made the decision to do “something” about it.

Now take that to extremes. Many people are ultimately not nice. Many other people have a lack of respect for perceived “scum”. This is apparent in the “civilized” world too. Look at the number of signatures on the recent petition to bring back hanging. Have you ever heard of someone being sent to jail for a horrific crime and heard someone say something along the lines of “hanging’s too good for them?” There’s also a reason why those convicted of horrific crimes against children have to be kept away from other prisoners.

Now take the situation in an African nation where someone is accused of stealing what little people have from a variety of people. The boils down to:
  • There is reason (rational or not) to think that the accused is guilty.
  • The accused is therefore directly harming everyone and must be stopped.
  • Law enforcement is ineffective or corrupt and won’t help, so the only option is allow the accused to keep harming everyone or take measures to stop them.
  • This person isn’t going to stop stealing. They’ve already made a cost benefit analysis and decided that they’re better off stealing than playing by the accepted norms of society.
  • You don’t have the means to just lock them up.
  • Some of the people involved in handing down vigilante “justice” are unpleasant people in their own right, and they’re extremely angry at the accused.
  • Those handing down vigilante “justice” know that with such lax law enforcement, they’re not going to be punished for their actions against the accused.

None of this makes prejudice or violent vigilantism in any way acceptable, but both of them are symptoms of deep rooted problems. You’ve got to fix the underlying problems in order to eliminate the symptoms. Unfortunately, in in closed environments, both of these problems are self perpetuating. Ignorance breeds ignorance, and corruption encourages more corruption. Unfortunately, I don’t see this kind of abhorrent behavior going away any time soon.
 
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