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UK decline

Darren B

Darren B

Giga Poster
I have checked previous topics and dont believe this has yet been fully focused on....But please move to the appropriate location if so.

It seems during the past few years that theme parks in Britain are favouring "gimmicks" and/or extensive theming instead of rider experience when choosing a new coaster for their parks, for example, Saw,Thirteen,Mumbo jumbo and future projects at TP and AT (LC12 seems like a step in the right direction to be fair), So my question is.... it now time for the UK parks to go back to the tried and trusted models that are so popular across the globe or stick to their current methods?

I dont wish to go onto topic regarding AT 2013 coaster but i will use it as an example, Why not instead of putting in a "world's first", put in a B&M floorless coaster, The park badly needs a sit down looping coaster and Demon at Tivoli Gardens proves that it can be done under height,space and noise restrictions.

EDIT: Please move to general discussions, thanks.
 
Personally, that's exactly what I want. I don't care about these new gimmick 'worlds first' rides. They're often very convoluted records and I don't think they add anything to the ride themselves. I'd much prefer to see a great custom model of an 'established' coaster type. The Floorless idea being just right, it would be a great ride, but it's just not a worlds first.

Now I know that isn't as marketable for the parks, I mean, it's hardly a big selling point: "The UKs First Custom B&M Floorless Coaster" or something like that, and I think that is where the problem is. Parks want to be able to advertise something amazing about their new ride, and even though the coaster might be awesome, if people just see it as a standard roller coaster then it's not going to be as popular.

So to summarise, yes, I do wish parks in the UK would look at getting a good custom model of a tried and tested coaster type. How much of that is my enthusiast brain talking I don't know, but I'm bored of "World Firsts".
 
I like the world firsts that our UK parks create, because unlike america that can build huge terror machines the UK has to find something different, for that reason I would rather have a one of a kind ride in the UK than be a follower of the American 'same old same old' rides!
In america we seem to see too much of the coasters fixated around height!
 
^Yes, but surely a unique model of an existing coaster would be just as good as a worlds first? I mean sure, we've got much more awkward planning regulations, but that wouldn't stop a park like Alton getting a custom floorless coaster (for example). The planning department at Alton/Merlin clearly have good ideas, just look at Nemesis, Oblivion, Saw, Thirteen etc, they're creative. I just like to think what they'd be able to do with a standard model if they focused on making a truly excellent coaster and ignored the worlds first thing.
 
I've expressed similar feelings in other threads before. I'm sick of the gimmicks compromising the ride, so let's either cut the gimmicks, or at least make sure that the gimmick gets integrated into a really good ride.

It's not as if it's that hard to market a good ride either. Sure you can't just grab a megaphone and shout "worlds first bleh" with the volume turned up to 11, but that's lazy marketing anyway. Just focus on a slow, steady build up - initially a few teasers, them later maybe a couple of half second shots of the coaster taking good elements - enough to make it look exciting but not enough to fully give away what it is. Theme it well, market it based on the theme, wait for mad rush on opening day.

Hell, if anything, building a good coaster should help with word of mouth marketing and encourage people to make return visits. How many of the general public go home right now and say "I went to Alton Towers last weekend. I waited 45 minutes for Th13teen, and it was ****". How many people go back to Alton specifically because they want to re-ride Nemesis or Oblivion? How many go back specifically to ride Th13teen again?
 
Whilst maybe taking a break from 'Worlds Firsts' might be a good idea, I still think they should stick to 'new/rare' ride types to this country. E.g. Woodie's, hypers/airtime coasters etc

I personally think going for ride types such as the B&M Floorless would be a step backwards in parks like Alton/Thorpe where there already is a B&M looper, having experienced the different types of coaster I really don't think there is that much variation between the track being above or below you, and therefore a different ride type with a more varied experience would be better to bring to this country.

^ Also, I don't think many people at all go to Alton Towers for just one ride, and also, hearing from a lot of friends who've ridden Th13teen, whilst some said they were dissapointed, they all said it was good, some saying amazing.

So yeah, I think it's nice to be different to the rest of the world and have some world's firsts.
 
In terms of gimmicks I can totally appreciate why they go for it. It makes the marketing just that little bit easier when there is something 'unique' about the ride but I also agree with MouseAT that they should also spend more time ensuring that the gimmick is integrated into the ride experience itself. Once again, I think it is safe to say that I think the 'theme' is vitally important in getting it right.

With a bit of conjecture I am going to mention the soon to be built Seven Dwarves coaster over in WDW. I have no fear nor doubt in my mind that the "swaying" cars will add something special to the ride experience and be done in a way that fits the theme and the story fully - rather then being there because they can. Of course, it is hard to use Disney as an example because for the most part, they don't have to bang on about worlds first or anything like that anyways.

Back on this side of the water and looking at Alton Towers with Th13teen, it is probably the foremost example of when a gimmick gets a bit carried away with itself and the rest of the ride fails to live up to the hype. In the past (and several times I hasten to add) I have argued that Th13teen would have been a far better ride experience if they had themed and marketed it in a way that suited the ride type. Going all out trying to convince people it was terrifying was only ever going to back fire. If they had opted to tell a different and more family orientated story that involved some kind of 'fall' within the building peoples thoughts of the ride would be far different. As MouseAT points out, there is a possibility that many people leave thinking what the hell was that? This is largely because of the fact it is marketed at adults as being something it blatantly isn't. The marketing gimmicks do not match the ride gimmick which in turn destroys the ride experience.

Gimmicks can work though. Adventure Island played with the 'fake station' gimmick for their Over The Hill ghost train. At best it is rather crudely done but nevertheless, I come off the ride feeling totally satisifed with the experience. Why? Because in no way have they made out it is far more terrifying than it possibly can be. It is marketed as a Family Ghost Train and it delivers upon that message in spades.

Alton Towers themselves have made gimmicks work too. Oblivion was the worlds first 'vertical' drop coaster. Naturally this played a big part in the marketing, at the time the notion of a vertical drop was unheard of and possibly even daunting. Even now some people find Oblivion unnerving, I can think of a few CFers for starters! This coupled with a theme 'story' that is pitch perfect to match the riders already existing nerves mean that the ride experience fulfills what it says it will. So many people have commented in the past about how it is just the drop and nothing else, a one trick pony. Granted, this is true, but it is done in such a way that the rider doesn't feel cheated when they get off.

At this point I could mention Nemesis and how well the ride itself is harmonious with its theme story and the way in which they market it, but we all know that.

These points considered it leads me to believe that when the theming and marketing of the ride is done well a gimmick coaster can be a massive success and crowd pleaser. When the elements do not match up it leaves the rider feeling a little bit cheated. Personally, I would love to see more attention to theme that they give the ride in the first place. When they get it right it creates a fantastic overall experience that gives me exactly what they said it would.

By all means, go for a gimmick, just don't rely on that as being the major selling point and for heavens sake, don't bill it to be something it simply can not achieve...
 
Now I know that isn't as marketable for the parks, I mean, it's hardly a big selling point: "The UKs First Custom B&M Floorless Coaster" or something like that, and I think that is where the problem is.
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Thing is, it would be marketable though. "New coaster", and a picture of an inversion etc, and there you go. People will go mad for it. Especially if its at the Towers.
 
As Mark has pointed out there is a great argument for new coaster types, especially if there themed to add to the rides experience, And of course every great coaster that exists today started as a worlds first in some point in time, But maybe its just me as an enthusiast speaking but i feel there are world class coaster types around the world that havent yet been experienced here in the UK that the GP would love. And please correct me if im wrong but a custom model of a tried and tested coaster type would generally cost less than a "Worlds first", Its hard to give a prime example of what im trying to say but ill give it a go (Ill again use AT 2013 coaster as an example as i started the topic with it).... the Demon B&M custom model floorless coaster at Tivoli Gardens costed approx 8 millon GBP yet the projected 2013 coaster at AT is projected to be in the range of 15 million GBP plus, Imagine the theming and advertising they could produce with the extra cash by taking the before mentioned? for me, A world class trusted coaster model+fantastic and original theming+an advertising campaign to match would be better received by the GP in both the short and long term than just another "Gimmick".
 
Towards sawalive, yes, america has done its fair share of "copy pasta" when it comes to building new rides in the past few years, but we are now getting some inventive rides coming out soon (Cheetah Hunt, the BGE 2012 coaster, Hersheypark 2012 coaster). Had to say that cause it bothered me, but going on topic.

I followed the whole Th13teen story as being something needing a waiver signed to even get in line and having to see a whole bunch of psychologists after so you could resume your normal, everyday life (stretching it a bit, but you get the idea), and I must admit, the advertising DID make me want to ride the ride. However, as soon as I saw the ride itself, the "horrifying to the point in which minds will snap and you will be scarred forever" part of the ride and reading nothing but horrible reviews/experiences made me very disappointed (all of this done through the wonders of youtube and searching the tubes of the internet). Then to find out the actual cost of it all and everything seriously made me wonder if having a "worlds first" would be worth it, even over here. Yet, I realized that a new coaster isn't out to just impress us, the enthusiasts, but to impress and bring awe to the GP.

The GP always want something new, something exciting, something never done before....or....something bright, flashy and pretty that will hold their attention and create whatever feeling the Park wants to cause. People are very simple minded (no offense meant) and always want to experience something fresh, not the "boring and mundane". Alton Towers has essentially already had a form of a sit down looper. To us, a Vekoma and a B&M are different; however, to those that don't really get the differences between companies, group the rides together to best describe them (example would be explaining this to my young cousin, he groups them as in either you sit and don't go upside down, sit and go upside down or hang beneath the track with those two options as well). A floorless B&M is still essentially a sit down looper without the floor beneath your feet. So creating an "AT Demon" wouldn't pull the same crowd the owners want. Yes, it is technically a first for England, it would be different to us, but the public have already "done" it in a sense or have actually ridden one outside of england and told others about it (Oblivion/Corkscrew meets Nemesis/Air somewhat or they could have traveled and ridden one somewhere). It won't bring back the crowd and basically the money they want now, but would bring in a steady crowd in the long haul.

The whole "World's First" campaigning strategy is a wonderful way for them to pull in those big crowds that they want. It doesn't matter if the new ride is well received or not, it still pulls in the crowd. If it was amazingly awesome the people will show, if it is horrible and plain out boring the crowds will still come cause they were told so and they might not believe that persons opinion. No matter what we as enthusiasts feel would be the proper way the company should go, they will go with what gets them the crowd and cash quickest followed up by a typical crowd pleaser to keep the income coming in strong.

(I do believe none of this made any sense, but its late and my attention has shifted so many times its a wonder i even finished this)
 
^I agree that 'World Firsts' are better at pulling in the guests, but they're starting to get seriously tacky records. Saw, being the worlds first 'horror' coaster (or whatever it was), is a load of bollocks. As was 13 with the worlds first vertical drop horizontal track effect thing.

That's my concern, the more they try to push the worlds first, the more they run the risk of them being even bigger, and
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, gimmicks. I mean, what would be wrong with a Europe's First (eg. Aquatrax), or UK First (eg. Floorless). Most people aren't going to care that another coaster exists somewhere they're never likely to visit. It'll still draw the crowds, without being a disappointing gimmick.
 
I actually think Thirteen's world first element is probably the best we've had for a while, its just an awkward one to word, without it sounding like a stupid record.
 
^Actually yes, I take back that 13's unique element is
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. It's actually great, my problem is with the marketing of it.
 
Hixee said:
[Th13teen's new element is] actually great, my problem is with the marketing of it.
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There's more to it than the the marketing though. They were so focussed on putting in the new element that they did nothing with the theme in the crypt, and the outside section is nowhere near as good as it should have been.

They had an opportunity to build something world class on that site. Instead they clearly sat down and brainstormed a decent element, stuck it into a half-arsed layout and said "OK, that'll do". That's the problem.

If Thorpe Park's 2010 coaster is as good as the plans make it look, it'll be a good example of combining a good gimmick with a good theme and a good ride. As for Alton, they're already busy saying "world first" for their new ride. That (to me) means gimmick first, and ride quality second - in other words, same old same old.
 
MouseAT said:
Hixee said:
[Th13teen's new element is] actually great, my problem is with the marketing of it.
Click to expand...
There's more to it than the the marketing though. They were so focussed on putting in the new element that they did nothing with the theme in the crypt, and the outside section is nowhere near as good as it should have been.

They had an opportunity to build something world class on that site. Instead they clearly sat down and brainstormed a decent element, stuck it into a half-arsed layout and said "OK, that'll do". That's the problem.

If Thorpe Park's 2010 coaster is as good as the plans make it look, it'll be a good example of combining a good gimmick with a good theme and a good ride. As for Alton, they're already busy saying "world first" for their new ride. That (to me) means gimmick first, and ride quality second - in other words, same old same old.
Click to expand...
Yes, quite right...
 
The thing is, even if a park literally just put up a photo of a ride with the caption 'new rollercoaster for 2012' or similar underneath, the GP will definitely be excited about it. It doesn't HAVE to be a world's first every time. If you happen to be using a world's first style of coaster, then great, but don't split hairs trying to find a world's first element in a rollercoaster that's not really about that at all.

I just feel it's all a bit lazy, it seems that it's a proven formula therefore they'll use it over and over again rather than rethinking and coming up with an awesome theme/advertising campaign to draw the crowds in.

I'm pretty damn sure the public would get ten times more excited by something like Cheetah Hunt being installed over here than something like Mumbo Jumbo, which is essentially just a glorified Wild Mouse.
 
Yeah, I'm a bit sick of Alton's "World's First!" bollocks now as well. I'm not sure that I'd hold Daemonen as a good example of what could be done instead though; it's dire, though I agree with the idea that a creative approach to an established ride type (first in Europe is a good enough marketing tool) would probably be preferable to squeezing a crap coaster around a dubious world's first element.
 
The UK isn't getting a greater number of gimmicks to what it ever was, so I don't know what the "decline" you're talking is all about.

I think you're all rather ungrateful. Despite the UKs high density of rides, we have variety and quality.

I just want to comment on 13, because I'm getting a little sick of this "i hated the marketing of it!" That's ALL we ever hear about 13. Don't pretend it promised more then failed to give more, you all knew exactly what you were getting. The comments about it being badly themed or whatever... Seriously? Have you like, looked at the rest of the park? Where does this idea of how well themed a ride "should have been" come from? And then comments like "they could have done better" well, they probably could, but whats the point on spending more if it's unlikely to give you better returns? Do you honestly think we have a better business idea of how to run a park??

Thirteen, in my opinion, was less about being a worlds first and more about being surprise... And they did ruin that. It's element is basically rendered pointless if you advertise it. But he issue comes of how DO you advertise it then? It's all very well being avante garde and interesting and creative and unique, but when it comes down to selling it to the masses... How? It's certainly possible, but when something's selling point is indescribable you're generally left to word of mouth with "you just have to experience it!". Take something like Portal 2. Look at the mass media advertisements for it, look how they actually show very little of the game because quite frankly, how do you explain whats good about it without getting someone to play it? The unfortunate thing is that people go round to a friends to play a game or watch a movie, listen to a music track... You can't "test" a coaster like this. The marketing campaign has to be blatant, has to describe what it's like completely and has to get you interested.
 
@ Joey... Although just my opinion, the reason i use the word "decline" is that i simply believe that the UK is going down hill in terms of coaster construction my example is a simple one... In the ten years between 1994-2004 the UK parks went toe-toe with some of the biggest parks in the world to bring some of the finest rollercoasters to date, and succeded in spectacular fashion!! since then weve seen ummm... Stealth, Thats it!! nothing else has really been a big success, And only LC12 looks likely to please the masses in the future.
 
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