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Thorpe Park | Project Exodus | Mack Hyper Coaster? (UK's tallest coaster) | 2023/2024

Coasterfreck

Mega Poster
I absolutely do want a hyper, IF it can be done in a way that makes it as good as Shambhala or close… If it’s going to be a second rate hyper, I’d rather they use the space and money for something better.
Any Hyper by B&M for the UK, would be fantastic, and Thorpe desperately needs something that is good, with high capacity and appeal, and so does the UK, but here is my question why does it need to be as good as Shambhala?, considering most of the every day GP Thorpe gets will probably not have ridden another B&M Hyper. Sure for enthusiasts we can go out of our way to do them, but I’d rather a second rate B&M hyper over not having a B&M hyper at my home park.
 

JoshC.

Giga Poster
Interesting... are there any local enthusiasts living near enough to Thorpe to qualify? I do understand why Merlin want to limit it, though; locals might feel a bit intimidated and unable to raise their genuine concerns if it's overrun by enthusiasts.

Would depend on what they're classifying as "local" for the in-person event. One would assume it's open exclusively for the people who received the flyers.

I'm close to the park (and under some definitions, I'm sure could be classed as 'local'), but didn't receive a flyer.


I think it's important to be respectful of the process. The in person consultation is a chance for the locals to get all the appropriate information they need in a quick, direct manner and air their concerns. They won't care who manufactures the ride or anything like; they'll care about how the construction process could affect their day-to-day life, whether a new ride will increase baseline noise levels, what the park will do to offset these concerns, etc.
I'm sure some people will try and get in so they can try and be the first to reveal the exclusive news. But the most respectful thing to do is to wait those extra hours to find out.
 

Nicky Borrill

Giga Poster
Any Hyper by B&M for the UK, would be fantastic, and Thorpe desperately needs something that is good, with high capacity and appeal, and so does the UK, but here is my question why does it need to be as good as Shambhala?, considering most of the every day GP Thorpe gets will probably not have ridden another B&M Hyper. Sure for enthusiasts we can go out of our way to do them, but I’d rather a second rate B&M hyper over not having a B&M hyper at my home park.
Because it’s the only way it’s making my too ten 🙈🤷🏻‍♂️ Is the honest, blunt, and very personal answer…

But to broaden that, Thorpe have an opportunity to do something special… Surely even you’d be disappointed with a Hyper than can’t even get close to the 12 year old one most British GP and goons have easy access to?

Most of the GP… And some Goons too, have never ridden an Intamin Hyper, Intamin Blitz, RMC, Mack Extreme spinner…

Why ‘Any Hyper by B&M’ Matt?

B&M’s Capacity, Operations, Reliability, Height, Intensity, Airtime, Speed, Excitement can all be matched or beaten by other manufacturers / models.

So why not something else? Is it because you haven’t had the chance to try any of the alternative models? No disrespect intended, I certainly am not that well travelled myself, but I do get this impression.
 

Matt N

CF Legend
Because it’s the only way it’s making my too ten 🙈🤷🏻‍♂️ Is the honest, blunt, and very personal answer…

But to broaden that, Thorpe have an opportunity to do something special… Surely even you’d be disappointed with a Hyper than can’t even get close to the 12 year old one most British GP and goons have easy access to?

Most of the GP… And some Goons too, have never ridden an Intamin Hyper, Intamin Blitz, RMC, Mack Extreme spinner…

Why ‘Any Hyper by B&M’ Matt?

B&M’s Capacity, Operations, Reliability, Height, Intensity, Airtime, Speed, Excitement can all be matched or beaten by other manufacturers / models.

So why not something else? Is it because you haven’t had the chance to try any of the alternative models? No disrespect intended, I certainly am not that well travelled myself, but I do get this impression.
While I admittedly wasn’t the original poster you aimed this comment at, I think I could have a go at justifying what they’re saying (if they wouldn’t mind, of course).

Fron where I’m standing; as much as B&M Hypers might not appeal to you personally, I think on the whole, they are very well-liked rides, and if you balance non-enthusiasts and enthusiasts, I’d argue that they are perhaps one of the ride types with the widest appeal among park guests. They are real crowd pleasers among the general crowd (in many parks they’re in, they’re often one of the most popular rides), and from what I can tell, the vast majority of enthusiasts (not all, but certainly most) would consider even a weak B&M hyper to be a good to great ride. And I still think that airtime-wise, it would be a big upgrade on anything we currently have in Britain.

In terms of B&M vs other manufacturers; as much as other manufacturers could beat B&M in some regards (and possibly do in a few others), there are some where I do think B&M still stands on top, and also some where I’m unsure if other manufacturers would necessarily beat them.

For instance, I’d argue that B&M has far more of a consistent track record of quality builds than any other manufacturer in the hyper coaster field. Mack have only built 3, and as much as Intamin have done a fair few and many of their recent rides look excellent, I get the outside impression that they’re slightly more hit and miss than B&M, particularly in terms of their older hypers/megas. At very least, I think Intamins are more variable in quality than B&Ms, from what I can tell. B&M also does have that reliability advantage over the competition; their rides are very reliable, and parks like working with them, while I know there are parks out there who actually won’t work with Intamin due to past unreliable rides. In fairness, though, I’ll admit that Mack could come close to B&M in terms of reliability; I’ve never heard of a majorly unreliable Mack ride.

I would also argue that while another manufacturer could beat B&M on capacity, I’m unsure if they would based on current operating examples of the ride types. As far as I’m aware, no Mack or Intamin hyper currently operates 3 trains, and their trains typically carry less riders than B&M’s. While I know Intamin can go up to 28 with their 4-across trains, Hyperion still only has a throughput of 1,300pph according to RCDB, while B&M mostly breach the 1,500pph barrier. And in terms of Intamin and Mack’s 2-across models; these (or at least, the newer ones in Intamin’s case) tend to only seat 20-24 riders, with throughputs of ~1,000pph or slightly over; as some examples, Flash (Mack) hits 1,040pph with 24 riders per train, and Kondaa (Intamin) hits 1,080pph with 24 riders per train. Even if you go with some of Intamin’s larger train models from the 2000s, the highest throughput I could find on RCDB was 1,300pph. B&M, on the other hand, often exceed the 1,500pph threshold and can go up to 1,800pph with 36-rider trains.

Also, I would argue that things like Mack and Intamin’s layouts being better are down to personal preference as opposed to being a hard fact. For instance, while I know that many adore Hyperion (Intamin), I also know many who weren’t especially enamoured with Hyperion and prefer the B&M hypers they’ve done. Ditto with Kondaa, and also the 3 Mack Hypers, as well as some of Intamin’s rides from the 2000s.

I’ll admit that a fair bit of this is based on second-hand accounts, so some of it may be things some of you disagree with, but I do think that there are numerous advantages of buying a B&M over going with another company based on what I know and have heard. I think it depends on what type of ride the park wants; both B&M and the competition have their advantages and disadvantages for sure.
 
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Nicky Borrill

Giga Poster
While I admittedly wasn’t the original poster you aimed this comment at, I think I could have a go at justifying what they’re saying (if they wouldn’t mind, of course).

Fron where I’m standing; as much as B&M Hypers might not appeal to you personally, I think on the whole, they are very well-liked rides, and if you balance non-enthusiasts and enthusiasts, I’d argue that they are perhaps one of the ride types with the widest appeal among park guests. They are real crowd pleasers among the general crowd (in many parks they’re in, they’re often one of the most popular rides), and from what I can tell, the vast majority of enthusiasts (not all, but certainly most) would consider even a weak B&M hyper to be a good to great ride. And I still think that airtime-wise, it would be a big upgrade on anything we currently have in Britain.

In terms of B&M vs other manufacturers; as much as other manufacturers could beat B&M in some regards (and possibly do in a few others), there are some where I do think B&M still stands on top, and also some where I’m unsure if other manufacturers would necessarily beat them.

For instance, I’d argue that B&M has far more of a consistent track record of quality builds than any other manufacturer in the hyper coaster field. Mack have only built 3, and as much as Intamin have done a fair few and many of their recent rides look excellent, I get the outside impression that they’re slightly more hit and miss than B&M, particularly in terms of their older hypers/megas. At very least, I think Intamins are more variable in quality than B&Ms, from what I can tell. B&M also does have that reliability advantage over the competition; their rides are very reliable, and parks like working with them, while I know there are parks out there who actually won’t work with Intamin due to past unreliable rides. In fairness, though, I’ll admit that Mack could come close to B&M in terms of reliability; I’ve never heard of a majorly unreliable Mack ride.

I would also argue that while another manufacturer could beat B&M on capacity, I’m unsure if they would based on current operating examples of the ride types. As far as I’m aware, no Mack or Intamin hyper currently operates 3 trains, and their trains typically carry less riders than B&M’s. While I know Intamin can go up to 28 with their 4-across trains, Hyperion still only has a throughput of 1,300pph according to RCDB, while B&M mostly breach the 1,500pph barrier. And in terms of Intamin and Mack’s 2-across models; these (or at least, the newer ones in Intamin’s case) tend to only seat 20-24 riders, with throughputs of ~1,000pph or slightly over; as some examples, Flash (Mack) hits 1,040pph with 24 riders per train, and Kondaa (Intamin) hits 1,080pph with 24 riders per train. Even if you go with some of Intamin’s larger train models from the 2000s, the highest throughput I could find on RCDB was 1,300pph. B&M, on the other hand, often exceed the 1,500pph threshold and can go up to 1,800pph with 36-rider trains.

Also, I would argue that things like Mack and Intamin’s layouts being better are down to personal preference as opposed to being a hard fact. For instance, while I know that many adore Hyperion (Intamin), I also know many who weren’t especially enamoured with Hyperion and prefer the B&M hypers they’ve done. Ditto with Kondaa, and also the 3 Mack Hypers, as well as some of Intamin’s rides from the 2000s.

I’ll admit that a fair bit of this is based on second-hand accounts, so some of it may be things some of you disagree with, but I do think that there are numerous advantages of buying a B&M over going with another company based on what I know and have heard. I think it depends on what type of ride the park wants; both B&M and the competition have their advantages and disadvantages for sure.
Actually… I thought it was you 🙈😂😂😂 No idea how that happened, guess I just got used to chatting with you 🙈😘

Intamin have rides that operate 4+ trains, Mack have Helix… So capacity is NOT a problem as far as manufacturer is concerned… It never is under any circumstances really, it all depends what the customer wants, and is willing to front! Add an offload to Hyperion or Zadra and you have a 3 train capacity monster… (p.s, comparing theoretical throughputs across manufacturers is pointless too… Nemesis is 1400 and Taron is 1200… Anybody who’s done both knows how laughable that is!)

As for hit and miss, I’ll just say that is subjective, just like you pointed out in regards to layouts and Hyperion… But we’ll have an idea after some of the current enthusiast polls operating. (such as coasterbot’s)

Finally… I’ve said it a million times!!! But I’ll say it again. I do ‘like’ B&M hypers, and overall B&M are in my top 3 manufacturers!!! But I just hope this is special, and fear it is less likely to be as a B&M hyper. Given the space, expense, and ‘Merlin.’ I hope I’m wrong, god that would be feckin amazing to have a top tier hyper here, but I just can’t see it! Which would be a shame.
 

Matt N

CF Legend
One thing I’d say is that I’m not sure if enthusiast polls are necessarily the best gauge of what the general park-visiting demographic likes. While I’ll admit that it may give an idea in some cases, enthusiasts tend to like different things to your average park visitor.

For instance; from experience with people I know talking about the Alton Towers coasters, I don’t think Nemesis is anywhere near as revered among the average visitor as it is among enthusiasts, and things like Wicker Man, Galactica and Smiler are far more revered among the general visitor than they are among enthusiasts. I know that there are some rides that rank highly in enthusiast polls, but are not overly well liked or popular among visitors to that park; for instance, Skyrush and I305 are undeniably enthusiast hits, but are often said to not be very popular among the general visitor within their respective parks.

My point is; while I’m not downplaying enthusiast polls by any means, as I’m sure that enthusiasts do have an influence to an extent, I’d personally be very hesitant to assume that the opinions within these polls reflect the opinions of the wider park-visiting populace, because from personal experience, I know of numerous cases where they often don’t. Enthusiasts only make up a microscopic percentage of park visitors, and while I’m sure our tastes do align with the average visitor in numerous cases, I also don’t think enthusiast polls can be used as a cast-iron way to determine what the general theme park visitor base likes.
 

Coasterfreck

Mega Poster
Thanks @Matt N, I wouldn’t have been able to write that better myself, but you did raise all of the points that I would have expanded on
But to broaden that, Thorpe have an opportunity to do something special… Surely even you’d be disappointed with a Hyper than can’t even get close to the 12 year old one most British GP and goons have easy access to?
I would never be disappointed with having any Hyper on my doorstep, or really any new coaster (minus water coaster) for that matter.

Thorpe won’t be building for enthusiasts, it will be building for it’s audience, and the general public, and what they see best fit for them, we can all dream what we all would like but at the end of the day it most likely isn’t going to happen.
 

Snurt2theHark

Roller Poster
For instance; from experience with people I know talking about the Alton Towers coasters, I don’t think Nemesis is anywhere near as revered among the average visitor as it is among enthusiasts, and things like Wicker Man, Galactica and Smiler are far more revered among the general visitor than they are among enthusiasts.
I honestly don't really think there is that much of a difference between the public and enthusiasts when it comes to the rankings of coasters at Alton Towers, having spoken to many non-enthusiasts, The Smiler is equally as marmite amongst the public (those that have rode it) and enthusiasts, some people love it and others despise it yet Galactica is still seen as very tame yet relaxing in comparison to Nemesis. For many of the public, it will be the first time experiencing an inverted, flying, launch, dive or multi-looper, people's favourites tend to be the ride type they would enjoy the most.

You maybe could be conflating general queue times and popularity of rides, Wicker Man has a throughput of near 1000pph and is still the newest thing so gets decent queues, meanwhile The Smiler only has an average throughput of 600 - 850pph so will of course demand higher queue times even if the same number of crowds go to each ride per hour. Nemesis meanwhile consistently gets through 1200+pph so will always have a shorter queue time in comparison to The Smiler. Not to mention The Smiler and Wicker Man are at the front of the park so will be the rides people will always go to first or last, whereas Nemesis and Galactica being at the back of the park are typically walk-on in the last hour of the day.
 

Matt N

CF Legend
I honestly don't really think there is that much of a difference between the public and enthusiasts when it comes to the rankings of coasters at Alton Towers, having spoken to many non-enthusiasts, The Smiler is equally as marmite amongst the public (those that have rode it) and enthusiasts, some people love it and others despise it yet Galactica is still seen as very tame yet relaxing in comparison to Nemesis. For many of the public, it will be the first time experiencing an inverted, flying, launch, dive or multi-looper, people's favourites tend to be the ride type they would enjoy the most.

You maybe could be conflating general queue times and popularity of rides, Wicker Man has a throughput of near 1000pph and is still the newest thing so gets decent queues, meanwhile The Smiler only has an average throughput of 600 - 850pph so will of course demand higher queue times even if the same number of crowds go to each ride per hour. Nemesis meanwhile consistently gets through 1200+pph so will always have a shorter queue time in comparison to The Smiler. Not to mention The Smiler and Wicker Man are at the front of the park so will be the rides people will always go to first or last, whereas Nemesis and Galactica being at the back of the park are typically walk-on in the last hour of the day.
I know it sounds strange to many enthusiasts, but I’m not conflating queues with popularity here. I am genuinely referring to the preferences of my family & friends based on what they’ve told me. Admittedly, that particular pool is quite small, so may not be entirely representative of the wider park-visiting populace, but from what I can tell, Smiler seems very popular among the non-enthusiasts I know, as does Galactica!

For instance, my younger cousin recently went to Alton Towers for the first time, and she said that Smiler and Galactica were her favourites (she loved Galactica so much that she rode it 17 times!).

My older sister, who for reference thinks that Nemesis is “a bit boring” and has it as one of her least favourites, also puts Smiler & Galactica as her top 2 at Towers, and when we went with her and her friends once (while Smiler was closed in 2015), they all raved about how brilliant Galactica was compared to everything else, and it ended up being the only coaster we did twice!

I can only speak of my own family, of course, but that’s just what I’ve found! Wicker Man gets a few mentions too, but from what I’ve found, Smiler and Galactica are the ones they often tend to rave about! (And trust me, I’m not saying that because Smiler and Galactica are my favourites, because they’re actually my bottom 2 out of the big 7 and I’m not especially in love with either)
 

Rupert

Mega Poster
As for hit and miss, I’ll just say that is subjective, just like you pointed out in regards to layouts and Hyperion…
Completely!!! I’d definitely say the same about RMCs (eg I think whilst Steel Vengeance is astonishingly good, Wicked Cyclone is a completely average coaster) or Intamin hypers (EGF amazing, but I don’t rate Goliath) or Mack launches (Helix is unbelievable, Blue Fire is fine).

But I don’t think there is a bad B&M hyper. Whilst I agree Shambhala is immense, I also think Silver Star is great and also weirdly seems to have gotten better in recent years - for all intents and purposes there aren’t any trims now. But it comes back to the (again subjective) question of what Thorpe needs in its lineup. As has been said I think that is good quality airtime and capacity, not inversions or launches. I won’t complain at all if they get an RMC, but if I had to choose between them building Wicked Cyclone and Silver Star I’d take the B&M hyper any day. I would say that’s a much more ‘special’ coaster to use your phrase above, but coming back to the start this is again clearly subjective!
 

Thecoasterrus

Mega Poster
While it only makes a minor difference recent B&M coasters do feature rolling blocks, I am unsure whether Intamin offer this, but I believe that RMC doesn't. (If we aren't counting the continuous loading on raptors)

Anything that features airtime is solid in my book.

Intamin seems to be far more reliable then they used to be, so I don't believe that an intamin would be a "risky" investment. The only concern I have with Intamin is their train design, as Kondda only has a 1.95 (6ft.5) max height restriction, so what good is a mega coaster if it excludes a fair chunk of guests.



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JoshC.

Giga Poster
as Kondda only has a 1.95 (6ft.5) max height restriction, so what good is a mega coaster if it excludes a fair chunk of guests.

Perhaps being a modest 5ft 8.5inches skews my view of this, but are a "fair chunk" of guests over 6ft5?

Wikipedia lists the average height of a man and a woman in the UK as 175cm and 162cm respectively.
This random document: https://unece.org/DAM/trans/doc/2005/wp29grsp/HR-04-14e.pdf (the first that appeared for me when Googling UK population by height) says the 95th percentile for men for height is 187cm.

Obviously it is something which should be considered and I'm sure it sucks for anyone around that height, but I don't think it excludes that many people?
 

Thecoasterrus

Mega Poster
Certainly not the majority no, but I still think it excludes enough people for it to impact on guest satisfaction, plus it's not just height either, larger guests could also suffer disappointment.

In all fairness it's me thinking about me.

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Thekingin64

Strata Poster
As a tall guy near the 1.95 height limit, I have never experienced any issues on coasters with max height limits (excluding Jellikins). Been measured twice, got through both times. The only rides I find uncomfortable are older Top spins and Pinfari OTSRs. Since I have never witnessed anyone be measured (and never measured myself) for Swarm's max height, I really doubt Thorpe will enforce any new max height.


As for the new ride itself, I would love a new hyper at Thorpe. Out and back or twister style, it would fit perfectly into Thorpe if done well. My only concern is I don't trust Merlin to do a good job of it. They will find a way to make a silly gimmick out of it rather than simply give us a good, solid coaster, purely so it's marketable to the UK public. If they go for UK's tallest, that would hopefully be enough of a gimmick that they don't need another but you never know...

(Off topic but this is also why I have a love/hate relationship with Enso at BPB, and am dissapointed in them for doing it. We had a good, solid coaster in Icon that could hold up on it's own without gimmicks. Now they're adding a gimmick to make it more marketable...)
 

Thecoasterrus

Mega Poster
For some reason I got measured just before I went on the swarm last October, despite going on it several times earlier in the day. I passed the height check but someone if front of me had to do the walk of shame. He wasn't much taller than me and he seemed to fit in the ride fine.

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Thekingin64

Strata Poster
For some reason I got measured just before I went on the swarm last October, despite going on it several times earlier in the day. I passed the height check but someone if front of me had to do the walk of shame. He wasn't much taller than me and he seemed to fit in the ride fine.

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I stand corrected then. Maybe I've just been lucky enough to get the more relaxed ride ops. :)

Also, if this is a hyper, Can we get Thorpe to draw of the inevitable comparisons and finally build the ever-rumoured Bigger One?...
 

RobCoasters

Mega Poster
As for the new ride itself, I would love a new hyper at Thorpe. Out and back or twister style, it would fit perfectly into Thorpe if done well. My only concern is I don't trust Merlin to do a good job of it. They will find a way to make a silly gimmick out of it rather than simply give us a good, solid coaster, purely so it's marketable to the UK public. If they go for UK's tallest, that would hopefully be enough of a gimmick that they don't need another but you never know...
I don't really have anything against ENSŌ but this bit I absolutely 100% agree with. Leave the gimmicks at Towers because they can't go anywhere in terms of height so the existence of those is justifiable.

On the other hand Thorpe has, and should continue to have massive coasters that do their job without the need for a gimmick because they have a ridiculously tall height limit. They have all the space they need. A loosely themed area with a flat would do just fine, like with Inferno Saw and Colossus.
 

Nicky Borrill

Giga Poster
I can’t keep up with this thread anymore 🤷🏻‍♂️🙈😂

I keep replying to the wrong people, completely losing the plot…

I’ll just say this and not a word more on the matter until it changes… I still haven’t seen any solid evidence of why this ‘should’ be a b&m hyper over numerous other makes and models…

Just pure confirmation bias (haha I got to use that phrase in a sentence after looking it up yesterday! 🤪) and wishful thinking…
 

pvnks

Mega Poster
I can’t keep up with this thread anymore

I keep replying to the wrong people, completely losing the plot…

I’ll just say this and not a word more on the matter until it changes… I still haven’t seen any solid evidence of why this ‘should’ be a b&m hyper over numerous other makes and models…

Just pure confirmation bias (haha I got to use that phrase in a sentence after looking it up yesterday! ) and wishful thinking…
I believe the young professionals these days call it "manifesting it into reality"

At this point I'm down for anything so long as it truly is world-class as they promise, something to be excited about.

As much as I loved the Wickerman build-up for AT, it still felt as though we were marching towards underwhelm as GCI woodies aren't always "up there" in folks' top lists.

Fingers crossed, this will deliver just like my clothes fit me at the moment...

Big and tall.
 
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