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Question about the I305/Megalite after drop turn

_koppen

Hyper Poster
I was wondering the other day about the 270 degree helix that follows the first drop on I305 and the Megalite's.

How big can a coaster get before it starts to cause problems with the wheels?

We all know the Megalite's are fine, and we all know I305 was not fine.

Would a 210 feet ride be fine, or would the wheels melt down? Maybe a 240 feet ride? Or maybe just 180?

Is there anyone here that can answer this question?
 

jolash

Mega Poster
You don't design a ride so that it has those kind of problems. I305 had problems because Intamin apparently skipped school the day of engineering class.

Wheels don't just... melt. You either come up with a less forceful element or use better quality wheels.
 

Screaming Coasters

Strata Poster
^ Actually, wheels do melt quite frequently, which is why you see deformities.. Its one of the biggest causes of a blow-out. I've experienced one on PMBO, they took the wheel off on the final block and it was shattered.
 

Hixee

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The height of the drop doesn't necessarily mean the wheels are put under more force (it is the forces on the rubber which cause them to heat up and possibly melt). It's the combination of speed and turning radius that causes the forces (in the case of I305/Megalites they're fast, tight turns). The more open the corner, the weaker the forces will be, and therefore you could have TTD drop straight into a corner and (provided the corner is big enough) the wheels wouldn't blow out right away.

So it depends...
 

_koppen

Hyper Poster
Hixee said:
The height of the drop doesn't necessarily mean the wheels are put under more force (it is the forces on the rubber which cause them to heat up and possibly melt). It's the combination of speed and turning radius that causes the forces (in the case of I305/Megalites they're fast, tight turns). The more open the corner, the weaker the forces will be, and therefore you could have TTD drop straight into a corner and (provided the corner is big enough) the wheels wouldn't blow out right away.

So it depends...

So if you want the intensity that these rides have, how big do you think one could go?
 

Hixee

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How much money have you got? :p

If you wanted a 3G corner, that turned (say) 270°, then the radius of that turn is going to be some function of the speed of the train, and therefore the height of the drop. So all you'd have to do is scale them both up accordingly.

Where you're going to have an issue with a big corner is the time it takes the train to complete the element. The riders and wheels would both have to be able to sustain ~3G for the whole corner. Now I'm not much of an expert on the stats of this sort of thing, but I would imagine the average person would start to feel a bit awful after 6-7 seconds of 3G. The data in this report (I haven't read it all, just skim read some bits) seems to suggest that's about the limit.

The wheels? I really don't think that's as much of an issue. It would be easily possible to manufacture a compound that could withstand that amount of force for that amount of time. I'm afraid I can't give you that much of an answer, but I305 seems to be around 5-6 seconds from the pull-out of the drop to the entrance of the hill, so I'd think you could probably give it another 50-100ft on top of that before you'd start to mess people up big time. Bear in mind you've got to design a ride for everyone, not just pilots trained to withstand higher forces.
 

Hyde

Matt SR
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Hixee said:
It's the combination of speed and turning radius that causes the forces (in the case of I305/Megalites they're fast, tight turns).
E.g. Maverick's former barrel roll at just under 70 mph.
 

jolash

Mega Poster
Hyde244 said:
Hixee said:
It's the combination of speed and turning radius that causes the forces (in the case of I305/Megalites they're fast, tight turns).
E.g. Maverick's former barrel roll at just under 70 mph.

Oh how I wish that was around.
 

Hyde

Matt SR
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guTTVVco1NA[/youtube]
 

Antinos

Slut for Spinners
I'm going to have to punt to Hixee for a good chunk of this response, as he's further in his schooling than me.

Looking at the road wheels on both Piraten and 305, they appear to be about the same size:

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kk9edg34lem4d80001g31a.jpg



I305's wheels are spinning at a much faster rate than Piraten's. I can only imagine what that can do regarding heat generation, but I haven't learned anything about that yet. This is hopefully where Hixee can teach us science!
 

Hyde

Matt SR
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^ Which is in part why I305 has wheel misters on the brake run. Cedar Point has retrofitted misters into MF's station as well.
 

jolash

Mega Poster
Hyde244 said:
^ Which is in part why I305 has wheel misters on the brake run. Cedar Point has retrofitted misters into MF's station as well.

Titan also has these. But lets also remember how brutal the Texas sun is.
 

Hixee

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Antinos said:
I305's wheels are spinning at a much faster rate than Piraten's. I can only imagine what that can do regarding heat generation, but I haven't learned anything about that yet. This is hopefully where Hixee can teach us science!
It's actually rather simple really.

The amount of heat generated in a polymer (or any material for that matter) due to elastic strain is clearly proportional on force, frequency and the material property that governs heat generation under stress (the name of which escapes me at the moment, but lets just call it the stress-induced-heating coefficient). Now lets assume the trains weigh roughly the same, are both pulling a turn with the same force, the wheels are both the same size, and have the same material on their wheels. This means that the only factor affecting the heat generated in the wheel (disregarding all the other external factors) is the frequency of the load. If you imagine drawing a straight line from the axle to the outside edge of the wheel (like a spoke) then that part of the wheel will undergo the compressive force once every time the wheel rotates. The faster the train travels the more often that section of the wheel undergoes the loading, and therefore the faster it heats up.

However, if you make the wheel marginally larger, or slightly alter the material, you could easily change the frequency and/or stress-induced-heating coefficient meaning that the heating of the wheel becomes something you can control relatively easily.*

However, as I said previously, trying to pull a 4G corner at 100mph needs a much bigger corner than a 4G corner at 50mph, and my personal opinion is that the guests then become the limiting factor. Biological factors are a lot harder to change. :lol:

*It is worth noting though, as Hyde244 and jolash said, that the external air temperature and humidity might also impact on this quite heavily, and so in the summer in the Midwest (and most of the time in Texas ;) ) they use the misters to cool the wheels in between circuits. They could presumably use a much tougher polymer in the summer when the temperatures are very hot, but the rubber on the wheels makes a big difference to ride quality, speed conservation (I've heard people mention them using softer rubber during testing to simulate slow runs) and so a compromise needs to be found. Like has been said many times, there are a lot of factors that affect this sort of thing. I would imagine, however, that the majority of new rides fall within the already well understood material ranges, and so they aren't having to redesign the wheels every time.
 

Taxi

Mega Poster
_koppen said:
I was wondering the other day about the 270 degree helix that follows the first drop on I305 and the Megalite's.

How big can a coaster get before it starts to cause problems with the wheels?

If the radius of the turn allows for it;
Theoretically, infinitely large. Realistically, there is a limit.

However this really all depends on the wheels themselves and what conditions they will be exposed to, and the amount of stress they will receive. The biggest issue with coaster are the wheels. Engineers and science are more than capable of producing 600 foot/180MPH coasters, the real issue comes down to the wheels.

IMHO. As long as the G's* during the turn are well below the wheels limits (depending on the mass of the train), and the Velocity the train travels through that curve is safely less than the wheels maximum RPM, theoretically the coaster can be well over 700 ft tall (144+ mph) . While using the appropriate type of wheels.

However, if you have a 700+ foot coaster and apply the above, you would have an extremely large curve. Something that probably would not fit in the majority of amusement parks. Just look at the size of Dodonpa's curve. The train can safely traverse that sharp 170' hill after a 107mph launch largely due to the wheels draining an enormous amount of energy from the ride. Which also allows for a smaller radius for the turn. Using more high-tech /modern wheels (less energy draining) you would see a curve much larger than Dodonpa's.

I hope this helps.



*applying as little G's as possible, which increases the radius
 
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