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BGW/Intamin

MLDesigns

Hyper Poster
This has been on my mind for a while. Why does Busch Gardens Williamsburg not like Intamin? I mean, with all the problems that Mach Tower has had, why didn't they just go with Intamin in the first place? Why didn't BGW go with Intamin, instead of Zierer, to build Verbolten? Anyone know?
 

Hobbes

Mega Poster
Mike said:
Because Intamin rides are generally expensive.
That's about all there is to it.
B&Ms aren't cheap either, but they've got three at BGW. There's got to be something more to it, especially since they skipped on an Intamin drop tower, which isn't exactly a massive investment in the first place. Was there a specific incident that led to the bad business relationship, or was it just general unreliability?
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
Hobbes said:
Mike said:
Because Intamin rides are generally expensive.
That's about all there is to it.
B&Ms aren't cheap either, but they've got three at BGW. There's got to be something more to it, especially since they skipped on an Intamin drop tower, which isn't exactly a massive investment in the first place. Was there a specific incident that led to the bad business relationship, or was it just general unreliability?
I expect B&M are cheaper in the long run, tbh.

But that isn't why. Their head of engineering dude has been quite vocal about not wanting an Intamin ride in his park again.

I'm not sure if I think it's over the top, or the kind of attitude that other parks should embrace.

It's funny, though, when you go straight past the Intamin for something like Verbolten, a company who've yet to prove themselves with big rides, and straight past Intamin as the industry leader for a drop tower. They "got lucky" with Verbolten, but Mach Tower is hilarious. To be honest, BGW buying a drop tower was dumb decision in the first place, where as a proper family thrill coaster like Verbolten was something they should have done years and years ago.

What EXACTLY was the deal with Pompei? Is it REALLY any worse than, just for the sake of proving a point, Air was at Alton when it opened? I swear Air was down constantly, the second station never worked, like, ever. I'm sure I only saw the two stations in use in the last few years, in fact?

The weirdest thing is how distinct BGW is from the rest of the group in it's Intamin-hate. Oh, and of course, the Irony in them previously being so far up Arrow's arse. When I think "industry failure" I think "Arrow". I'm suspecting half Busch's favouring for Arrow was their "all-American" facade they used to boast.
 

bmac

Giga Poster
Joey said:
What EXACTLY was the deal with Pompei?

The weirdest thing is how distinct BGW is from the rest of the group in it's Intamin-hate. Oh, and of course, the Irony in them previously being so far up Arrow's arse. When I think "industry failure" I think "Arrow". I'm suspecting half Busch's favouring for Arrow was their "all-American" facade they used to boast.

Pompeii was a reliability nightmare and I remember statements on fan forums about how Intamin needed to modify the boats multiple (as in more than 3) times in order to reduce the splash radius. If I remember the statements right the splash zone from pompeii would reach to the train tracks with a loaded boat. There was also issues with Roman Rapids, but I cannot recall or find what they were, but they must not have helped much in Giles opinion of Intamin.

Arrow wasn't really an 'industry failure' like you say. They were good at spitting out rides for relatively cheap prices, even compared to early Intamin and B&M in the 90s. The only two times Busch chose Arrow over other companies were Big Bad Wolf and Drachen Fire. Big Bad Wolf was delayed due to Schwarz's bankruptcy in 1983, and they contacted Arrow because they were the only other company in the world with experience in that discipline of rides. Drachen Fire was built by Arrow because B&M wasn't able to handle the workload at that time (remember they were only a few years old) and because Arrow built two successful and popular roller coasters for them before.

The difference in BGW having 'their heads up Arrow's arse' and 'hating Intamin' is based entirely on their experiences with the company. BGW had great experiences with LNM, BBW, and Le Scoot, so they tabbed Arrow for Drachen Fire. BGW (particularly Giles) had horrible experiences with Roman Rapids and Pompeii, so they won't touch them.

I think the Intamin-hate was actually Busch-wide until InBev bought out Anheuser-Busch, because BGT did not have an Intamin ride built between when Pompeii was built and 2011, 3 years after the buyout. BGT must have a head ride engineer that either was not around during the AB era or just doesn't dislike Intamin, but during the AB-era all the 'sister rides' were built by the same company bar Kumba and Drachen Fire (for the reason I stated before). Le Scoot and Stanley Falls - Arrow, Tanganyika Tidal Wave and Pompeii - Intamin, Loch Ness and Python - Arrow, Montu and Alpengeist - B&M, Sheikra and Griffon - B&M, Roman Rapids and Congo River Rapids - Intamin. The latest 'sister ride' pairs built are very similar but have been built by different manufacturers bar one pair (Grover's, which are clones from Zierer), Verbolten and Cheetah Hunt - Zierer and Intamin, and Mach Tower and Falcon's Fury, Moser and Intamin. This shows that SWP&E still follows the Busch's sister ride tradition, but lets the individual parks handle more of the bruntwork in contracting the ride. Compare this to a company like Cedar Fair, which makes the executive decision for every major addition to be built in a park (Intimidators, Wicked Twister, Xcelerator, Leviathan, Behemoth, Gatekeeper, Windseekers, Dinos Alive, every Planet Snoopy) and leaves the more minor additions up to the individual parks (KD's, KI's, and CW's Fountain upgrades and Kings Dominion's retrograding the Grove into Candy Apple Cove or w/e it's called).

And for the final paragraph in this post that's dearly not needed, Busch did not have "'an All-American' facade." They imported merchandise from the countries that they represented in their hamlets like the Beer Steins and Coo-coo clocks from Germany, and the Masquerade Masks from France. The only "All-American" thing that Busch has done is support the US Military through the Here's to the Heroes Program, something Anheuser Busch has been doing for over 150 years.
 

SaiyanHajime

CF Legend
And for the final paragraph in this post that's dearly not needed, Busch did not have "'an All-American' facade." They imported merchandise from the countries that they represented in their hamlets like the Beer Steins and Coo-coo clocks from Germany, and the Masquerade Masks from France. The only "All-American" thing that Busch has done is support the US Military through the Here's to the Heroes Program, something Anheuser Busch has been doing for over 150 years.
Not really what I meant. Those are thematic things, I meant as a business.
 

CPSFMMCW

Mega Poster
Larry Giles, the head dude of BGW, has sworn away from intamin and will never put in an intamin as long as he is El Presidante. Intamins are not only expensive, but they aren't as high matinance as B&M's. for examples, look at Intamindator 305 in the same state. It was down for like 2 months. As one once said, it's like an addition $5,000 for work on them per year. Wether that be true or not, it gets the Point across. I know, I hate it too.
 

rtotheizzo17

Hyper Poster
I have to admit I haven't seen the financials for a major Intamin coaster, but I have seen the costs of keeping up B&M's and it ain't cheap. Again, I can't compare to an Intamin as I don't have access, but the B&M costs are outweighed by the support they provide, and the consistent experience for the guest.

^I would add a zero or two to that number. $5,000 is a very small amount in the industry. Look up Cedar Fairs yearly financials, look at their revenue, they are over $1 billion for their parks, with an operating expense of close to $700 million.
 

tomahawk

Strata Poster
Re: RE: BGW/Intamin

I know that Worlds of Fun has(d) a fantastic relationship with B&M because of their ability to fix things and have parts/people there the next day. They provided the wheels for Mamba after the heat chewed through a seasons supply in mid July. They rushed the order and it was there the next morning.

While not Intamin or Busch, they swore Zamperlas off mid season after the debacle that was Planet Snoopy. Parks do swear manufacturers off for seemingly small things.
 

bmac

Giga Poster
Re: RE: BGW/Intamin

tomahawKSU said:
While not Intamin or Busch, they swore Zamperlas off mid season after the debacle that was Planet Snoopy. Parks do swear manufacturers off for seemingly small things.

Kings Dominion almost got in trouble over last off season due to issues with Zamperla. I believe what happened at WoF was the reason why, since KD didn't have anything Zamperla before.
 

CPSFMMCW

Mega Poster
Re: RE: BGW/Intamin

bmac said:
tomahawKSU said:
While not Intamin or Busch, they swore Zamperlas off mid season after the debacle that was Planet Snoopy. Parks do swear manufacturers off for seemingly small things.

Kings Dominion almost got in trouble over last off season due to issues with Zamperla. I believe what happened at WoF was the reason why, since KD didn't have anything Zamperla before.
Don't forget, they also don't have anything from Vekoma. I'm not too upset about that or zamperla, but what the park does need is another B&M, since they only have one, compared to the other Cedar fair parks, most of which have more than one.
 

Error

Strata Poster
Busch Gardens isn't the only one whose sworn off Intamin. Cedar Point won't build another Intamin ride after the problems with Shoot the Rapids.

As for maintenance, I know that when an Intamin ride has a serious problems, it can be done for a week. In comparison, B&M will have someone out there the next day to help them (I've met two of them), and have the rides up in less than 3 days. Even though B&M is more expensive, they are more reliable when it comes to the long wrong. Not to mention: how many industry accidents were caused by mechanical failure by both companies?
 

bmac

Giga Poster
Error said:
Cedar Point won't build another Intamin ride after the problems with Shoot the Rapids.

I thought it was Cedar Fair-wide after the issues with both Shoot the Rapids and i305? Either way pretty much all of Cedar Fair's future additions haven't even had a hint of Intamin on them.
 

furie

SBOPD
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Speaking from a business point, it's hard to permanently steer away from all companies, but it's gratifying to see that there is a degree of sense and people recognise that ongoing costs and reliability are important.

The issue is that providers do change over time. You also need to be realistic in what you're asking for. If you order a prototype ride which pushes boundaries, then expect downtime. When you order a ride, make sure that you check the contract on things like replacement part delivery times, and engineer/expert response. Do your staff need additional training to maintain the ride - all kinds of stuff like that.

It seems to me that at times, the parks blunder into ordering rides with no real idea of the "big picture". We don't see Intamin getting sued by parks like Dollywood has with Huss, so there must be something, somewhere in the contract which distances Intamin from the faults and problems. If there was real blame, then it wouldn't just be "well, we won't use them any more".

Merlin and Gerstlauer are a prime example of this. It was clear that Thorpe had major issues with Saw, but Alton still went with Gerst for The Smiler. Again, major problems. Why? Why not look at Saw and work out what the problem was and make sure you don't fall into the same traps again as a business? What went wrong, and how do you ensure it doesn't happen again? Madness.

The fact is, at some point, maybe Intamin will be the only company able to cost effectively put in the ride you want. Look at the rise of the rocket coaster, all suffer from problems, but everyone bought an Intamin. Okay, everyone is buying a B&M Wing Coaster at the moment, but if Intamin come up with "the next big thing", do you think Cedar Fair will sit back and say "well, let Six Flags have exclusive access to the machine that is making people flock from as far as China to ride, we're not using that company again, not matter that it could increase our profits by 2,000%!!!"

Of course they'll use a company again, if they can profit from it.
 
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