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Alton Towers | Nemesis Reborn | B&M Retrack | 2024

Indy

Hyper Poster
If retracked Nemisis will be a new cred then retracked Balder also has to be.
Nemesis is a bit different though as the structure is getting replaced as well. Regardless, I certainly get your point and generally land in the not-a-new-cred camp. There is still a healthy section of track that is remaining untouched. As long as the layout remains the same, then this is more like long-term maintenance similar to what wood coasters have to go through over time.
 

Christian

Hyper Poster
Nemesis is a bit different though as the structure is getting replaced as well. Regardless, I certainly get your point and generally land in the not-a-new-cred camp. There is still a healthy section of track that is remaining untouched. As long as the layout remains the same, then this is more like long-term maintenance similar to what wood coasters have to go through over time.

Balder is a 100% retrack. That thing is rotting. I'm also in the not new cred camp but honestly don't care as I don't count creds.
 

Disco Lumberjack

Roller Poster
I don't count clones, so assuming the layout is close enough to identical you could argue that this new Nemesis is a clone of the original, which is why I won't count it. If you do count clones then I think it's fair to count it as a new one.
 

DelPiero

Strata Poster

If a cred has been fully replaced, as in every inch of it has been changed, then it's a new cred. Not happening in this case as lift hill, station and brake run aren't being changed. Same as Hulk.
However, if the changes substantially change the ride experience so much that it doesn't feel anything like the original then it can be argued it's a different ride. Lightning Rod is a decent example of this, it's now classified as steel as over 50% is steel.

Balder will be interesting. If it's a full refurb, as in all the track is being replaced then it's most definitely a new cred, as if all that track went else where it would still exist and the new Balder is a new cred. You don't ride the structure, you ride the track.

The Triggers Broom scenario is really hard to work with from a cred perspective though. Yes it's all been replaced, but did you ride the original before the track started being replaced, and have you ridden the new version when every inch has changed? Impossible to manage realistically, so full removal/retrack is the only logical way to approach it for me.
 

Indy

Hyper Poster
Balder will be interesting. If it's a full refurb, as in all the track is being replaced then it's most definitely a new cred, as if all that track went else where it would still exist and the new Balder is a new cred. You don't ride the structure, you ride the track.
To play devil's advocate, retracking is part of the standard maintenance of a wood coaster. Granted, the design of Balder's track is a little different than a traditional wood coaster so it's a bit more involved and expensive. However, most older wood coasters have more or less gone through full retracks. Even newish coasters like Thunderhead and Voyage have been almost completely retracked. It's just not traditionally done in one fell swoop like Balder.

I look at it like a car. If I go to a dealership and see two Jaguar F-Types right next to one another, then there are two separate but identical cars in front of me. If I buy one and keep if for years, I'll eventually have to replace the tires. If I keep it for a long time, I might even have to replace the engine and transmission. It's still the same car. I could gradually replace everything but the frame and it'd still be the same car. My registration doesn't change. However, if I send it to the scrapyard and then go buy another F-Type of the same exact year, trim, and color, it's obviously a different car.
 

Hixee

Flojector
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
To play devil's advocate, retracking is part of the standard maintenance of a wood coaster. Granted, the design of Balder's track is a little different than a traditional wood coaster so it's a bit more involved and expensive. However, most older wood coasters have more or less gone through full retracks. Even newish coasters like Thunderhead and Voyage have been almost completely retracked. It's just not traditionally done in one fell swoop like Balder.

I look at it like a car. If I go to a dealership and see two Jaguar F-Types right next to one another, then there are two separate but identical cars in front of me. If I buy one and keep if for years, I'll eventually have to replace the tires. If I keep it for a long time, I might even have to replace the engine and transmission. It's still the same car. I could gradually replace everything but the frame and it'd still be the same car. My registration doesn't change. However, if I send it to the scrapyard and then go buy another F-Type of the same exact year, trim, and color, it's obviously a different car.
And I'd go as far to say that if they said "oh wait, your wheels and wing mirrors are actually okay, you can take those with you and knock the price off the new car", it would still be a new car.

The cases like Hulk and Nemesis are, in some way in my mind, different as they're not incremental changes. It's so drastically different to the Trigger's Broom or Ship of Theseus example. I need to go have a look at exactly what's being done to Balder to decide how it would classify, but I'll be counting Nemesis again in the same way I did Hulk.

I enjoy counting creds, and the stats are part of the hobby for me, but I do subscribe to @rob666's sentiment that it doesn't actually matter. I do enjoy the debate though, that's why we're on these forums, after all!

Unrelated, but I'm expecting it'll get some enthusiast nickname at some point. Can we guess what'll stick? Neme2is? NemesIIs?
 

Indy

Hyper Poster
And I'd go as far to say that if they said "oh wait, your wheels and wing mirrors are actually okay, you can take those with you and knock the price off the new car", it would still be a new car.

The cases like Hulk and Nemesis are, in some way in my mind, different as they're not incremental changes. It's so drastically different to the Trigger's Broom or Ship of Theseus example. I need to go have a look at exactly what's being done to Balder to decide how it would classify, but I'll be counting Nemesis again in the same way I did Hulk.

I enjoy counting creds, and the stats are part of the hobby for me, but I do subscribe to @rob666's sentiment that it doesn't actually matter. I do enjoy the debate though, that's why we're on these forums, after all!

Unrelated, but I'm expecting it'll get some enthusiast nickname at some point. Can we guess what'll stick? Neme2is? NemesIIs?
That’s fair. Even before I saw your response, I began to think about how flawed my example was. You buy about a bunch of after market parts and bodywork and it’ll drastically change the car, but still be the same car. However, taking a bunch of aftermarket parts made by RMC and applying them to a CCI makes a completely different coaster.

Regardless, I always enjoy the cred discussion and don’t frankly care how people count their creds. It’s all in good fun.
 

Disco Lumberjack

Roller Poster
And I'd go as far to say that if they said "oh wait, your wheels and wing mirrors are actually okay, you can take those with you and knock the price off the new car", it would still be a new car.

The cases like Hulk and Nemesis are, in some way in my mind, different as they're not incremental changes. It's so drastically different to the Trigger's Broom or Ship of Theseus example. I need to go have a look at exactly what's being done to Balder to decide how it would classify, but I'll be counting Nemesis again in the same way I did Hulk.

I enjoy counting creds, and the stats are part of the hobby for me, but I do subscribe to @rob666's sentiment that it doesn't actually matter. I do enjoy the debate though, that's why we're on these forums, after all!

Unrelated, but I'm expecting it'll get some enthusiast nickname at some point. Can we guess what'll stick? Neme2is? NemesIIs?
As a stat though it's really about what you want to track, for some people it's just about making the number bigger, for me it's primarily new coaster experiences in terms of the layout, which is why I don't count clones. I also normally don't do kiddy creds, although I did Flying Fish to make Icon my 40th so I'm hardly consistent there.
 

Matt N

CF Legend
For me; it’s not a new credit. The essence of the ride is still effectively the same, and not even the whole track is being redone. To me, it’s no different to how wooden coasters are retracked as part of their maintenance other than that it’s being done in one foul swoop as opposed to in increments.

New Hulk wasn’t a new credit for me when I rode that (if I did count retracks as new creds, I’d be on 80 coasters, as I did both iterations of Hulk), so New Nemesis won’t be either.

Admittedly, though, I’m not sure what would be enough for me to consider one of these retracks a new cred… I’ve never really thought about it too much, and I think it’s a very grey area. For me, I think there would have to be some substantial change to the ride experience beyond the track being replaced. And I’m not talking something as small as new trains; I think they’d have to significantly alter the layout, significantly change the ride system or both for me to count it as a new credit.

It’s entirely up to you, though; I can totally see why people do class like-for-like retracks as new creds, I simply choose not to.
 

Tonkso

Hyper Poster
I'm in agreement. It's not a new experience as far as I'm concerned, it's maintenance. It's the same reason why I won't claim Hulk as a new credit this September, there's nothing fundamentally different.

But each to their own, it's just a bit of fun
 

Hyde

Matt SR
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
no fandom is safe from theseus's ship
So to be clear, if a roller coaster:
  1. receives new track
  2. receives new supports
  3. has a different wheel bogie
  4. installs new landscaping
  5. is ridden while raining
  6. is ridden while sunny
  7. is blowing
  8. ridden at high tide
  9. ridden underneath different horoscopes
  10. ridden above 30C
  11. ridden during the Olympics
  12. ridden during a football bye week
  13. ridden in long pants
All count as new credits. 🤑
 
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