Change background image
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Technically Good Coasters You Don't Feel

Discussion in 'General Discussions & Opinions' started by jayjay, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. davidm

    davidm Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    357
    Trophy Points:
    483
    Anyone who calls Millennium Force "Millennium Forceless" is so far up their own arse its not true.

    Sure it doesn't have snappy transitions - but it was never meant to. It was meant to be tall (very tall) and it is. It was meant to be fast (very fast) and it is. It was meant to be a big statement for the park - and it is. It was meant to be a crowd pleaser (and 17 years on from it, it still is I think (been 4 years since I was at the park, but biq Qs then)). OK perhaps I can accept that some "enthusiasts" might not think its great (but I refer you to my earlier comment), but objectively its a hugely successful coaster and it has done exactly what it was meant to do ; be a mainstay "big ride" for one of the biggest parks there is.
     
  2. toofpikk

    toofpikk Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Best Coaster:
    Wicked Cyclone
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    137
    Superman @ Six Flags new england?
    It does absolutely nothing for me after the first drop.

    Boulder Dash rode really underwhelmingly for me this year, too. Just a bit rough and hectic.

    Nemesis. I get people live for those grey out moments, but for me it just isn't fun because I tend to pick em up on much less intense rides anyway. I don't like it to the point my favourite attraction at Towers is th13teen, and not by any short distance.
     
  3. oriolat2

    oriolat2 Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    188
    Best Coaster:
    Skyrush
    Best Park:
    Europa Park
    So true! I was really looking forward to that ride and it turned out to be a letdown. No strong airtime and it felt sluggish... Its European counterparts are above Superman, especially Goliath.
     
  4. toofpikk

    toofpikk Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Best Coaster:
    Wicked Cyclone
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    137
    Goliath is another one actually, thought it was bollocks aside from the rolling hills. Did it in practically every row as well, the only one I've actually enjoyed is GeForce.
     
  5. DelPiero

    DelPiero Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    311
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    353
    The issue with the Intamin Megas from the 2000s is while they can be good in the right conditions, they are being left behind by the innovative designs of the past 5 years. The hype they generated for nearly a decade after opening and the subsequent accolades they picked up during that time aren't a mistake.
    They were technically good. But by today's standards they fail to live up to their deserved hype.

    Bizarro - I liked when I rode it, after it had warmed up a lot though, the early rides were awful.
    Goliath - Pretty rubbish and the worst of the ride type imo.
    EGF - Excellent at night, I've heard not great during the day.
    Millennium Force - Great drop and a couple of pops of airtime, decent overall.

    All of these at some point or another were at or near the top of the steel charts in both the Golden Tickets (lol) and Mitch's Poll, now they litter peoples top 30 or lower.
    Sometimes hitting a top 10 if someone gets a great ride, which isn't uncommon, but then it'll drop down again as people ride more RMCs, Macks, Gravity Groups, S&S launchers, insert your own loved ride type here...
     
    Joey, Hyde and Chris Brown like this.
  6. Joey

    Joey Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    100
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Best Coaster:
    Fury 325
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    494
    I would say this is the same problem I was having in another thread also, where people are equating lacking intensity to mediocrity. Space Mountain (in all incarnations) is better than Millennium Force at doing what it does and so is, imo, a better ride. Would I rather go on MF? Actually probably, but that's got nothing to do with either rides quality.

    Which is why Ben is wrong.

    I don't understand this... If you agree that things could be better, then why are we letting anything exist in mediocrity? We absolutely should criticise things that are too preoccupied with marketing gimmicks than actually being good.

    Whether MF specifically fills that category is another argument entirely, that's fair. But if it does, then it absolutely should get criticism the same way cash grab movies do. And we do, all the time, with Merlin's worlds firsts.

    So, let's talk about Nemesis? Which you routinely poo all over.


    Fury exists and proves that you can be tall, fast and a statement without sacrificing technical greatness.

    I've explained already why I don't think it matters how popular it is, because popularity is not the same as being good. But, some other interesting points to make here is that with coasters, queue length is NEVER an accurate way to judge popularity.

    Cedar Point is a very busy park, but if you could visit on a day where NOTHING had a line at all, but rides were still running to max capacity, and then took the throughputs... Then you could see what is popular. Existing queue length, capacity and reliability all factor into queue length on a normal day. But even then, the way a ride looks and the position in the park matters. But I am pretty certain that Maverick would have higher repeat riders than any ride in the park in those fantasy conditions, because it is actually good. On a normal day, the highest throughput probably belongs to Raptor, but no one is going to claim that is the most popular ride there.

    Look, I get what you're all saying... But I don't understand why we're ok with them just being commercially successful. That does not equate to quality. If you guys genuinely think MF is a great ride, then that's perfectly fine, but argue that and explain that. Because the popularity has nothing to do with that. I don't think MF is critically good. It's not a terrible ride, obviously. It's just "good" when I believe it could be "great" or "outstanding".

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    DelPiero and Ethan like this.
  7. Hixee

    Hixee Most Knowledgeable Member 2016 Staff Member Moderator CF Award Winner 2016

    Likes Received:
    659
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Silver Dollar City
    Coaster Count:
    509
    I suppose the issue is, if it's commercially successful, is it not "technically good"? I mean, it's done everything it was ever installed to do - even 17 years on.

    I completely see your point (as I see Ben et al's), but I think the problem really is how do you define "technically good"? Or rather, how do you define "technically good" without your opinion coming in to play? You (one) may place more emphasis on height, whereas someone else might place more on rapid changes of direction. These aren't ways to define a "technically good" coaster. Of course, as you rightly point out, queue length is no direct indicator either.

    It's much easier to define "technically bad", as it's uncomfortable, rough, etc. "Technically good" is very hard to define WITHOUT opinion. We don't have a roller coaster formula we can use as a metric to measure everything against.

    Unfortunately, once you remove opinion (including everything to do with subjective force-less-ness), it becomes very difficult!
     
  8. Lofty

    Lofty Social Media Team Staff Member Social Media Team

    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Best Coaster:
    Taron
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    427
    Millennium Force to me is a great ride and here's why:

    The ride's core aim is to create a strong sense of height and speed, and it does this superbly well for a number of reasons; mainly that it is in fact tall and fast - but this also comes with the layout that has been designed purposely to heighten these sensations. Think of it carefully - the location of the coaster itself plays a pivotal role in this in that it's right beside the lake which starts to disappear as you climb the huge hill, this momentarily causes you to lose the sensation of height due to the limited viewing. Then, you reach the top and you can finally take in how tall you are (first core aim hit!), you have a perception of where you are, the gage of height above the ground and lake. Following this is the incredibly steep drop which doesn't feel like it's actually going to level out (steep plays a key role too as it reaffirms your distance from the ground by focusing your viewpoint directly at the floor), the top speed is hit incredibly close to the floor and shrubbery and into that overbank which is considerably lower than the drop to maintain the notion of speed as it just ploughs through the element and you get some great positive G from it. What comes after? Another long, low to the ground banked turn and into a tunnel, again, reaffirming the notion of speed by enclosing you and bringing a near-miss element which flies by at great velocity. The airtime hill after very temporarily slows down the momentum in order to punch the height element again, basically, repeat these steps until the end of the ride. It's actually a very clever layout and when possible to punch the core aims of the coaster, it does it, special note to the second tunnel, bunny hop near the station, the long straight and final overbank. When you actually look at the elements on a POV or paper, sure, it doesn't look great but when you actually analyse the ride and look at the reasoning behind each of the elements, it's really :emoji_zipper_mouth:ing cool - they didn't just think "Oh, we need to go over there, throw in an overbank or a low curved section". It was all designed for a reason, and it's beautifully done.
     
  9. Hyde

    Hyde Matt SR Staff Member Moderator Social Media Team

    Likes Received:
    614
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Best Coaster:
    Ravine Flyer II
    Best Park:
    Silver Dollar City
    Coaster Count:
    184
    There actually might be a better example at Cedar Point of a roller coaster that is technically good and a commercial success, that does not provide "feels": Gatekeeper.

    Believe it or not, Gatekeeper sported the most rides in 2016, ahead of Valravn (on it's opening year, none the less), MF, Magnum, and Raptor. Granted - Gatekeeper's front-of-the-park location gives it (and Raptor, for that matter) a leg up for crowd draw, as they will focus on whatever big shiny roller coaster crosses their line of sight first. However, Gatekeeper is still a well received coaster by the public.

    ... Yet in the roller coaster enthusiast and technical analysis sense, there are undoubtedly better B&M wing coaster designs out there. While the gate effect is a fantastic element (one of the best in the business, I would argue), Gatekeeper is typically agreed on as a lower tier roller coaster. Yet, at least in terms of guests voting with their feet; this is the top draw for Cedar Point.

    Roll the clocks back a bit, and Raptor too sported the highest ridership of all roller coasters in the park. Again, better specimen of B&M Inverts in the world, yet Raptor has remained a perpetual crowd favorite, now in it's 23rd season.
     
    Joey likes this.
  10. Joey

    Joey Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    100
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Best Coaster:
    Fury 325
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    494
    @Lofty great post! It's a great explanation and has made me realise something that might be really important here. Height doesn't bother me, in the slightest. At all. So perhaps unless there's something else going on, the experience just feels numb to me?

    I, however, can't get over Fury. Fury is really tall, but it doesn't rely only on that fact and behaves more akin to Skyrush or one of the relentless wooden coasters than other Gigas. That said, there are plenty of rides I praise for doing their thing really well, even though that's all they do, so perhaps I'm just blind to MF's thing.

    MF feels very controlled to me like it never really changes speed. It just sort of mills about. I've compared both MF and I305's first drop (first drop only, the later half of I305 certainly does feel fast) to powered coasters in the past with looks of appalled horror from people, but they just feel waaaay too drawn out to me. The only way I can explain this seeming nonsense is that, you know how instantaneous and dramatic a wild mouse drop is? MF is the opposite for me, it goes on forever and gradually increases in speed, which just doesn't do it for me, I guess. It's the same as those arguments we used to have here years ago about which Intamin launch feels more intense not due to the top speed, but the time it takes to achieve it and the shortness of it... The highlight for me (other than it's length - I think coasters that last a long time are so rare that it is a point worth praise) is when it comes near ground level and you get some sense of speed from passing scenery and it just makes me think how good could this ride be if it was less concerned about being tall? Well, I guess not very because I305 sort of tried that and it sucks for different reasons.
     
    Lofty likes this.
  11. caffeine_demon

    caffeine_demon Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    228
    Best Coaster:
    skyrush
    Best Park:
    Europa
    I think this one's going to be quite controversial, but it's Helix.

    It's a coaster I think I should love and have in my top 10 - it has fabulous elements, great execution and pacing, yet I only "like it" - quite a lot, but it just seems it's missing something that I can't quite put my finger on! (that said - on the live last year, I did have one ride that was great!)
     
  12. Lofty

    Lofty Social Media Team Staff Member Social Media Team

    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Best Coaster:
    Taron
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    427
    I love Helix, but the ending kinda kills it for me slightly? The meandering up the hillside followed by that stupidly awkward roll.
     
  13. DelPiero

    DelPiero Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    311
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    353
    The meander isn't so bad at night and it is straight after the most intense positive G/Negative G combo of the ride so it's a good element to have but yeah, the inline is wrong as I've bleated about for years.
    Doesn't stop it being an incredible coaster though.
     
    Lofty likes this.
  14. Jarrett

    Jarrett Most Obnoxious Member 2016 CF Award Winner 2016

    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Cedar Point
    Coaster Count:
    308
    Actually, one of the two KD Intamins that got me into coaster enthusiasm fits this perfectly!

    I305 is a beautifully engineered machine except in a few spots. As someone who had always grown up being excited by mechanical things of all sorts, to see a coaster that advanced able to handle such an extreme experience was very cool to me. The double spine, the water jets in the station, the cable lift, and how it was able to handle the force of a nine-car train at five times the force of gravity almost sideways like that impressed the hell out of me when I saw it and rode it. Even as a GP-departing pseudo-enthusiast that day, I kind of thought the mechanism was cooler than the actual ride experience itself and Volcano was the one that ended up impressing me for both the experience and machinery.

    I rode it again this year and the ride experience still barely left me entertained except for a few mildly fun spots, but I still have a ton of respect for the technology that makes such an extreme ride possible. If you like soul-crushing blackout intensity, this ride experience is amazing and it wasn't an easy ride experience to dish out for Intamin I'm sure. However, I strongly prefer different things in a coaster to what this offers so to me it's just boring.
     
  15. TMCoasters

    TMCoasters Active Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Best Coaster:
    Maverick
    Best Park:
    Lake Compounce
    Coaster Count:
    67
    I don't know what ride you were on... The two hills right before the S Shields deliver TOP NOTCH sustained, ejector airtime right up there with El Toro in my opinion. Then the spaghetti bowl has a couple great ejector pops and the last couple bunny hops have great air as well.

    As for the rides that don't do much for me, definitely El Toro and Millennium Force. El Toro has four moments of spectacular airtime (drop, next two hill, and RT hill) -- although the RT hill is the weakest of them and isn't as great as it's cracked up to be -- but other than that it's just a rough ride with very uncomfortable seats that honestly take quite a bit away.
    Millennium Force, well, this will upset @davidm but it's just plain forceless. Been on at a few different times in the day and a couple different seats, but there's basically no airtime, nonexistent positive Gs (I felt more force on Woodstock Express!), and a rattle. The drop which is claimed to be one of the best on Earth didn't do much for me. There's some floater I guess, and it lasts a long time, but the aggressive drop on Maverick in the same park is better, let alone being even close to the drops on Skyrush, El Toro, or Superman The Ride.
     
  16. TMCoasters

    TMCoasters Active Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Best Coaster:
    Maverick
    Best Park:
    Lake Compounce
    Coaster Count:
    67
    Roller coasters are an art form if you see them that way, it's all about your outlook. Sure, parks do make rides to get money, but there's more to it than just money.
     
    Pokemaniac likes this.
  17. Hyde

    Hyde Matt SR Staff Member Moderator Social Media Team

    Likes Received:
    614
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Best Coaster:
    Ravine Flyer II
    Best Park:
    Silver Dollar City
    Coaster Count:
    184
    Because they definitely didn't have to recurve any of the lift hills, add water cooling for the train wheels, nor trim the first drop. ;)
     
    Lofty likes this.
  18. davidm

    davidm Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    357
    Trophy Points:
    483
    Not "upset", I don't give fig whether someone else likes or doesn't like a ride. And you misunderstand, I was saying that it was not built to be a high-g intense ride, it was built to be a big, tall, fast, statement of a ride - my point was people who call it "Millennium Forceless" like they are some sort of witty genius are just idiots really. Its like complaining about the lack of inversions on Seven Dwarfs Mine Train.
     
    Lofty likes this.
  19. DelPiero

    DelPiero Well-Known Member

    Likes Received:
    311
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Phantasialand
    Coaster Count:
    353
    I disagree with this entire post.
    Superman does not have any top notch airtime, the final hills have some and there's a little after the bends following the turnaround, but nothing compared to Toro or Skyrush.
    The RT hill on Toro is the strongest ejector on the ride.
    Toro's seats are not uncomfortable and it's not a rough woodie, Boulderdash for example is rougher, and pick any Comet style to compare roughness.
    MF isn't forceless, it does have some floater and ejector on the last 2 hills, not much, but it's there.
    MF's drop is better than Mavericks and Superman, Superman's drop is the worst of the ones you listed and I'm not sure how you think it compares to Toro or Skyrush's drop, they aren't in the same league.
     
    Lofty likes this.
  20. Jarrett

    Jarrett Most Obnoxious Member 2016 CF Award Winner 2016

    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Best Coaster:
    Lightning Rod
    Best Park:
    Cedar Point
    Coaster Count:
    308
    Never said that finding that out later didn't ruin the magic for me a tiny bit... :p
     

Share This Page